Tutored?

[Etienne]

In Bucks, where the 11+ consists solely of Verbal Reasoning, set by nfer, the official line from nfer is that the familiarisation and practice tests are all that is needed to prepare a child for 11+, and that further coaching/practice can have only marginal benefit.

I understood that given this statement, panels were supposed to ignore parents' claims of 'my child has not been tutored', since tutoring is not supposed to have any effect.

The first paragraph is correct and, unless things have changed, forms part of the authority's case.

The second paragraph is not really correct, because it is open to a panel accept or reject this part of the authority's case.

In practice, I cannot recall a panel ever showing an interest in tutoring.

Parents would frequently volunteer the information "my child was not tutored" in the hope that this might help their case, but it never carried any weight.

I would be equally surprised if a parent in Bucks was penalised for stating "My child was tutored". As Sally-Anne has suggested, it would be interesting to see from the clerk's notes whether this really was an issue in the decision making, and, if so, exactly how any comments were worded.

[Bronco]

Capers,

While you are probably well intentioned, you need to be careful what you post.

I cut the following from another thread you started - Thoughts of a panel member -

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I know that 'our' school doesn't like us allowing appeals - they'd like to give the places to the next x children on the waiting list (therefore the next brightest) - but I would argue that the list could be wrong - the appealants children could be brighter than those next on the list - or maybe not. We're unbiased!

Capers
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Well if you are discounting people who have had tutoring, I would say you are certianly not unbiased.

Living in Gloucestershire it does not take a rocket scientist, based on your posts to these groups, and the fact that there are seven selective schools in Gloucestershire, to identify what school you are a panel member for. Indeed I have narrowed it down to two foundation schools, without too much effort, and I know which one I would put my money on.

If I was a parent of a child who appealed to your school and found that you discrimated against them on the grounds of tutoring, I would be thinking about taking further action!

[capers123]

Capers,

Well if you are discounting people who have had tutoring, I would say you are certianly not unbiased.

Living in Gloucestershire it does not take a rocket scientist, based on your posts to these groups, and the fact that there are seven selective schools in Gloucestershire, to identify what school you are a panel member for. Indeed I have narrowed it down to two foundation schools, without too much effort, and I know which one I would put my money on.

If I was a parent of a child who appealed to your school and found that you discrimated against them on the grounds of tutoring, I would be thinking about taking further action!

Sorry, but the ombudsman would find that we made our final decisions on which appeals to allow only on sound reasons. This year 50% of those whose appeals we accepted had been tutored, the others hadn't. But they all had outstanding reasons why they did badly on the day, and we were also certain that the children would cope with an education at that school.

When one is hearing appeals, some people will be discriminated against. Some will be discriminated against on grounds of intelligence - this is SELECTIVE education, which means it is, by its nature, discriminating against the less intelligent.

If you have your child tutored, you are discriminating against those who do not - you're working the system for your own interest. It does happen in life, but I'm sort of principled.

When we appealed to get our daughter into a school that happened to be a C of E school, we told the head teacher in our initial application and also in the appeal, that we were not Christians, and would not be joining the church for 6 months just to move them up the entry list. Many parents would, but it is wrong - it belittles the beliefs of those who attend church for faith reasons other than personal advantage. Talking to the head afterwards, he was impressed that we were honest enough to say so.

Coaching - yes, I'll get coaching for my daughters, just to even out the playing field. I'd be happier if all children got some coaching at school in what the exams are like. But I will mention it if we have to appeal. It's a legal process - you're expected to tell the truth, and it does make a difference to your childs score - it's a material fact, so why shouldn't it be taken into account by the panel?

OK, everyone has their own view on life, and prejudices. We're all different, which is why a panel is made up of 3 members. We're not checked when we apply to make sure our views are the same or match those of the school, LEA or majority of parents.

In the years that I've been on a panel, yes, tutoring comes up, gets discussed, debated. But when it comes to the crunch, we can only accept a handful of appeals - there's not enough space in the school, so we have to work out what the best reasons the children didn't do well on the day of the exam.

If the reasons for an appeal are so outstanding that we accept it, it will normally outweigh the additional advantage tutoring gives. If your child had a major illness 2 weeks before the exam, had an operation and was still fairly ill, maybe that is a good case for an appeal and may well be accepted even if you were tutored. If your reason for appeal is that your child was nervous on the day & didn't sleep well the night before (and at least 25% give this as the main reason for appealing), the appeal will not be upheld, tutored or not.

I suppose I'd best shut up, Bronco, but before I go, please answer me two questions: 1 place available in the school - pass mark 225, entry mark 235. 2 children, both score 230. Both ill the night before the exam. One tutored for a year before hand, the other definitely not. Which is the brighter child, and which should get the place? I know which I would choose.

And secondly, as you have been an 11+ tutor for the last 15 years, can you be said to be unbiased - at least I have no financial interest in this.

Bye folks.

[flobajob]

Capers 123 has got to be a wind-up!

Seems to want to decide between those who admit to having tutored and those who don't, and then tries to codify what is an acceptable level. He/she has also set himself up as an arbiter of who/what is middle class and is busy judging people on the basis of playground chatter rather than the merits of the case. How queer!

Capers, do the parents in your area a favour and don't occupy yourself with appeals. Keep your 'principles' to yourself or don't do the job.

Flobajob

[capers123]

Seems to want to decide between those who admit to having tutored and those who don't, and then tries to codify what is an acceptable level.

.

So should we ignore if a child has been tutored? One parent who appealed complained that tutoring can affect scores by up to 15 points. Yes, it probably does.

He/she has also set himself up as an arbiter of who/what is middle class and is busy judging people on the basis of playground chatter rather than the merits of the case. How queer!

Playground chatter? I'd not talked to any of the parents before the appeals, and nor had I discussed them with the school. Grammar schools are not middle class - they have a mixture of children.

Keep your 'principles' to yourself or don't do the job.

So you'd prefer unprincipled people hearing the appeals? Maybe those open to bribes? That thought has something to commend it - at least then those who could afford it wouldn't have to put their kids through coaching (although the poor tutors would loose out)

[capers123]

Let's clear this up once and for all. I'm not against tutoring per se as most people do it if they can afford it.

It's just one of the many things we consider when we listen to appeals.

If you've got a strong enough case to win, then it won't matter if your child was tutored or not; and if you case is average or weak, then it certainly won't matter then either.

We've never decided an appeal on the fact of the child being tutored.

I just wish I could show you all a list of all my notes over the last few years - it would give you all an idea of what really swings an appeal.

[Appeal Mum]

I just wish I could show you all a list of all my notes over the last few years - it would give you all an idea of what really swings an appeal.

You know you really are going to have to share now..

Thanks for all your input Capers.

AM

[Flobajob]

Capers, I suggest you read your earlier contributions.

I'm convinced that you're a wind-up. No-one could really be so unprofessional, judgmental and opinionated. Bribes indeed!

Go on admit it - you are a parody.

Flobajob

[Appeal Mum]

May I suggest with a name like "Flobajob" you’re the wind up!

Don't be so rude, especially to someone who has taken the time to register.

This forum is made up of people of all backgrounds and you have no right to determine who is and isn't genuine.


AM

[Sayed]

...........

Here in Gloucestershire things are changing for next year - the 11+ will still be in November, but the results will be sent out 2 weeks later, and before the school preference form. You still won't know if you've got a place at the grammar, or your score, but you will know if you've passed or not. It then allows you to put a good comprehensive as your first choice should you decide to go that way. Also schools will no longer be able to say 'we'll only consider you if you put us first' - we had people putting grammars second because they wanted a good comp if they didn't get the grammar, then passing, but not being offered a place as they hadn't got it as first choice (so having to appeal - but with a very good score).

Capers

Darn, that does certainly sound a better deal especially for the children. This is exactly the problem my younger sister is having, she passed the 11+ though put the school lower down in preference form just in case she didn't pass and the best local comp. higher up.
Our case is being up-held by the grammar school that don't want to give an appeal hearing because they know our case is strong and the LEA who don't want to loose a pupil to a grammar school i.e. want the local comp's to benefit, the ridiculous idea that a bright child in a class can "help" the dumber kids... And before anyone says anything, my first hand experience just coming out of a comp. b****x does it. If it did do anything, I was worse off!