Should I appeal?
Moderators: Section Moderators, Forum Moderators
Re: Should I appeal?
Thanks, Pickle - yes, can confirm email received, but not had time to study it yet. 
Etienne
Re: Should I appeal?
Great, thanks for letting me know. Wasn't sure if I'd confused things.
Do you ever sleep?
Pickle.
Do you ever sleep?
Pickle.
Re: Should I appeal?
This is not one of the more pleasant school cases I've seen.
The tone is quite hectoring at times.
Other admission authority cases often use phrases such as "We have great sympathy with anyone who cannot be offered a place, but unfortunately ........"
This school case lectures the panel: "We do not believe that an individual appeal in these circumstances should outweigh the prejudice to the school. We feel that to offer a place would be wrong."
In fact, if the parents' reasons for wanting a place were to outweigh the prejudice to the school - then to allow the appeal would be the right decision according to the Code of Practice.
Questions and observations:
Limited dimensions of teaching rooms
With respect - the school has provided no evidence of the size of rooms.
It refers to a net capacity assessment agreed with the LA, but has not made a copy of that document available to us or to the panel.
I wonder how many general classrooms exceed 49 sq. m.?
(d) Sixth form
What is the admission number for external students entering the 6th form?
So you've chosen to expand the 6th form?
(e) Special Needs
What percentage of pupils have special needs?
Would the number of pupils with special needs happen to be well below the national average for secondary schools?
(f) Health & Safety
How many reportable accidents have there been in the last 3 years that were directly attributable to overcrowding?
Prejudice
In years 7-11, is there any year group that exceeds the admission number?
If so, what hard evidence (rather than anecdotal evidence) is there that prejudice has been caused in practice?
Summing up:
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... cation#b49" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I suggest changing point 6 to:
We do understand the school’s reservations about the possible impact of an extra pupil, but contrary to the last point in the school case, it would not be wrong to offer a place if the panel were to decide that our reasons for wanting a place outweigh any prejudice to the school.
In fact that would be the correct decision according to the Appeals Code.
(7) We respectfully ask you to weigh up .......
The tone is quite hectoring at times.
Other admission authority cases often use phrases such as "We have great sympathy with anyone who cannot be offered a place, but unfortunately ........"
This school case lectures the panel: "We do not believe that an individual appeal in these circumstances should outweigh the prejudice to the school. We feel that to offer a place would be wrong."
In fact, if the parents' reasons for wanting a place were to outweigh the prejudice to the school - then to allow the appeal would be the right decision according to the Code of Practice.
Questions and observations:
Limited dimensions of teaching rooms
With respect - the school has provided no evidence of the size of rooms.
It refers to a net capacity assessment agreed with the LA, but has not made a copy of that document available to us or to the panel.
I wonder how many general classrooms exceed 49 sq. m.?
(d) Sixth form
What is the admission number for external students entering the 6th form?
So you've chosen to expand the 6th form?
(e) Special Needs
What percentage of pupils have special needs?
Would the number of pupils with special needs happen to be well below the national average for secondary schools?
(f) Health & Safety
How many reportable accidents have there been in the last 3 years that were directly attributable to overcrowding?
Prejudice
In years 7-11, is there any year group that exceeds the admission number?
If so, what hard evidence (rather than anecdotal evidence) is there that prejudice has been caused in practice?
Summing up:
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... cation#b49" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I suggest changing point 6 to:
We do understand the school’s reservations about the possible impact of an extra pupil, but contrary to the last point in the school case, it would not be wrong to offer a place if the panel were to decide that our reasons for wanting a place outweigh any prejudice to the school.
In fact that would be the correct decision according to the Appeals Code.
(7) We respectfully ask you to weigh up .......
Etienne
Re: Should I appeal?
Thank you Etienne. Great advice as always.
I have sent some more background information to the appeals box as it was a little sensitive. My questions regarding this are:
1) In any of my correspondance to the school I have refrained from mentioning others or quoting what the invigilator said. Do you think I should do this when we talk about extenuating circumstances at the appeal? I didn't feel it was right to bring others into it but wonder now whether I should.
2) Should a child with that 'condition' have been allowed to sit the test? Is it purely the parents decision?
3) Do I mention that my correspondance to the school was not acknowledged or will it sound as if I am being difficult?
4) Is the school's case incorrect with regards to an outstanding number?
I hope I'm not being too confusing here
it's a lot to digest.
Thank you.
Pickle.
P.S. I'm sure I will be back with more questions!
I am feeling very intimidated and wonder how I will cope at the hearing.Etienne wrote:This is not one of the more pleasant school cases I've seen.
The tone is quite hectoring at times.
Is this information the school will have readily available at the hearing?Etienne wrote:Questions and observations:
Limited dimensions of teaching rooms
With respect - the school has provided no evidence of the size of rooms.
It refers to a net capacity assessment agreed with the LA, but has not made a copy of that document available to us or to the panel.
I wonder how many general classrooms exceed 49 sq. m.?
(d) Sixth form
What is the admission number for external students entering the 6th form?
So you've chosen to expand the 6th form?
(e) Special Needs
What percentage of pupils have special needs?
Would the number of pupils with special needs happen to be well below the national average for secondary schools?
(f) Health & Safety
How many reportable accidents have there been in the last 3 years that were directly attributable to overcrowding?
Prejudice
In years 7-11, is there any year group that exceeds the admission number?
If so, what hard evidence (rather than anecdotal evidence) is there that prejudice has been caused in practice?
I have sent some more background information to the appeals box as it was a little sensitive. My questions regarding this are:
1) In any of my correspondance to the school I have refrained from mentioning others or quoting what the invigilator said. Do you think I should do this when we talk about extenuating circumstances at the appeal? I didn't feel it was right to bring others into it but wonder now whether I should.
2) Should a child with that 'condition' have been allowed to sit the test? Is it purely the parents decision?
3) Do I mention that my correspondance to the school was not acknowledged or will it sound as if I am being difficult?
4) Is the school's case incorrect with regards to an outstanding number?
I hope I'm not being too confusing here
it's a lot to digest.Thank you.
Pickle.
P.S. I'm sure I will be back with more questions!
Re: Should I appeal?
Given the 'tone' of the school case, I think you need to stand your ground and raise a lot of questions. Try to do this as calmly as possible - more in sorrow than in anger!
Have your list of questions written down, so that you don't forget anything when feeling under pressure.
The point is that they have mentioned net capacity, which uses 49 sq.m. as the minimum size for 30 pupils.
Rooms above 49 sq.m. do not normally alter the net capacity, but could in practice accommodate more pupils (depending on just how big they are).
They may try to muddy the waters by quoting current building regs. They make no mention of building regulations in their written case, however. They themselves have chosen to refer to net capacity.
The main argument is that their written case provides no hard evidence regarding the actual size of rooms.
Moving on to your own case
It might be more difficult to quote what 'others' said (anecdotal evidence?), but you could try. One way of putting them on the defensive would be to ask if other parents had complained, and - if so - what was the basis of those complaints?
Have your list of questions written down, so that you don't forget anything when feeling under pressure.
Ask at the hearing.4) Is the school's case incorrect with regards to an outstanding number?
They may not have a precise answer on the spot. (If they don't, it does nothing to help their case.)I wonder how many general classrooms exceed 49 sq. m.?
The point is that they have mentioned net capacity, which uses 49 sq.m. as the minimum size for 30 pupils.
Rooms above 49 sq.m. do not normally alter the net capacity, but could in practice accommodate more pupils (depending on just how big they are).
They may try to muddy the waters by quoting current building regs. They make no mention of building regulations in their written case, however. They themselves have chosen to refer to net capacity.
The main argument is that their written case provides no hard evidence regarding the actual size of rooms.
They must know the answer to this.What is the admission number for external students entering the 6th form?
They may not have precise figures, but it would be remarkable if they tried to claim that a grammar school has more special needs pupils than the average secondary school!What percentage of pupils have special needs?
Would the number of pupils with special needs happen to be well below the national average for secondary schools?
One would expect them to be aware of any serious incidents.How many reportable accidents have there been in the last 3 years that were directly attributable to overcrowding?
Even if they could point to a subsequent drop in exam results, how is anyone to know what the cause really was?In years 7-11, is there any year group that exceeds the admission number?
If so, what hard evidence (rather than anecdotal evidence) is there that prejudice has been caused in practice?
Moving on to your own case
It would be your word against the invigilator's, but the invigilator was acting on behalf of the school, so I see no reason not to give your version.1) In any of my correspondance to the school I have refrained from mentioning others or quoting what the invigilator said.
Do you think I should do this when we talk about extenuating circumstances at the appeal? I didn't feel it was right to bring others into it but wonder now whether I should.
It might be more difficult to quote what 'others' said (anecdotal evidence?), but you could try. One way of putting them on the defensive would be to ask if other parents had complained, and - if so - what was the basis of those complaints?
Ask that question at the hearing.2) Should a child with that 'condition' have been allowed to sit the test? Is it purely the parents decision?
I think you should, otherwise you could be accused of having no evidence. You can argue that you tried to get evidence for the hearing, but the school refused to provide it (even with names removed), and it was therefore in breach of the Code of Practice which requires admission authorities to respond to all reasonable requests for information appellants may need to help them prepare for an appeal.3) Do I mention that my correspondance to the school was not acknowledged or will it sound as if I am being difficult?
Etienne
Re: Should I appeal?
Hi Etienne/anyone that can help!
I have a few (very ) last minute questions for you. If you're not around, I'd be grateful for any help from members on here 
Quoting from the appeals code on Guiding prinicples for appeal panels:
2.21 c) written material and evidence must have been seen by all the parties.
Does this mean that if the school are referring to, say, an invigilator's report but we aren't actually allowed to see it, they are in breach of the code or is it just stating that all panel members have to have seen written material and evidence????
Also, can the school ask about other exams???
Many thanks as always.
Pickle.
I have a few (very
) last minute questions for you. If you're not around, I'd be grateful for any help from members on here Quoting from the appeals code on Guiding prinicples for appeal panels:
2.21 c) written material and evidence must have been seen by all the parties.
Does this mean that if the school are referring to, say, an invigilator's report but we aren't actually allowed to see it, they are in breach of the code or is it just stating that all panel members have to have seen written material and evidence????
Also, can the school ask about other exams???
Many thanks as always.
Pickle.
Re: Should I appeal?
1. I'm sure it means that (for example) it would be completely wrong for the panel and school to have information or evidence that is not made available to the appellant.
2. I tend to think they should only ask questions about the case you are putting forward (but this might leave quite a bit of room for a 'grey area').
2. I tend to think they should only ask questions about the case you are putting forward (but this might leave quite a bit of room for a 'grey area').
Etienne
Re: Should I appeal?
Thank you Etienne.
I've had feedback from another appellant and they told me that the report was referred to but it wasn't shown to them. I think that this is so wrong, bearing in mind the appeals process is supposed to be transparent and we have to provide all of our evidence prior to the hearing.
The appellant was also asked directly by the head if any other exams were passed.
The IAP did not question the appellant at all
We are heading for much of the same very soon. Is this normal??
Also, the local review undertaken wasn't mentioned at all.
b) where a local review process has been followed, the panel must only consider whether each child’s review was carried out in a fair, consistent and objective way and if there is no evidence that this has been done, the panel must follow the process in paragraph 3.13 (a) above.
Is this a way of the school avoiding the panel reverting back to:
i) that there is evidence to demonstrate that the child is of the required academic standards, for example, school reports giving Year 5/Year 6 SAT results or a letter of support from their current or previous school clearly indicating why the child is considered to be of grammar school ability;
By not allowing us to challenge FCO?????
I hope you see where I'm going with this.
Thanks.
Pickle.
I've had feedback from another appellant and they told me that the report was referred to but it wasn't shown to them. I think that this is so wrong, bearing in mind the appeals process is supposed to be transparent and we have to provide all of our evidence prior to the hearing.
The appellant was also asked directly by the head if any other exams were passed.
The IAP did not question the appellant at all
We are heading for much of the same very soon. Is this normal??
Also, the local review undertaken wasn't mentioned at all.
b) where a local review process has been followed, the panel must only consider whether each child’s review was carried out in a fair, consistent and objective way and if there is no evidence that this has been done, the panel must follow the process in paragraph 3.13 (a) above.
Is this a way of the school avoiding the panel reverting back to:
i) that there is evidence to demonstrate that the child is of the required academic standards, for example, school reports giving Year 5/Year 6 SAT results or a letter of support from their current or previous school clearly indicating why the child is considered to be of grammar school ability;
By not allowing us to challenge FCO?????
I hope you see where I'm going with this.
Thanks.
Pickle.
Re: Should I appeal?
I still see no reason at all why they can't provide the invigilator's report, provided names have been blotted out. It might be grounds for a future complaint.
At least the previous Appeals Code pointed out "Panel members are expected to play an active part in the questioning of both the presenting officer and the appellants, showing favour to neither party."
The current, simplified Code is silent!
You could ask them at the hearing whether they are applying the 'fair, consistent & objective' test. If they say they are, then you can ask why they've not provided any evidence that your review was carried out 'fairly, consistently & objectively'.
Alternatively - if you want to play the long game - you could just wait for the result of your appeal, and, if unsuccessful, see what reasons they give. If they were to enforce 'fair, consistent & objective' without having told you, I'm reasonably confident you could win a complaint and eventually get a fresh hearing in front of a different panel.
Problem is - although a failure to ask questions is never a good sign - it doesn't prove an injustice.The IAP did not question the appellant at all ..... Is this normal?
At least the previous Appeals Code pointed out "Panel members are expected to play an active part in the questioning of both the presenting officer and the appellants, showing favour to neither party."
The current, simplified Code is silent!
This might be all right - so long as they don't intend to enforce 'fair, consistent & objective'. If they do, then their written case ought to explain on what grounds they think your review was 'fair, consistent & objective'.Also, the local review undertaken wasn't mentioned at all.
You could ask them at the hearing whether they are applying the 'fair, consistent & objective' test. If they say they are, then you can ask why they've not provided any evidence that your review was carried out 'fairly, consistently & objectively'.
Alternatively - if you want to play the long game - you could just wait for the result of your appeal, and, if unsuccessful, see what reasons they give. If they were to enforce 'fair, consistent & objective' without having told you, I'm reasonably confident you could win a complaint and eventually get a fresh hearing in front of a different panel.
Etienne
Re: Should I appeal?
Thank you for your speedy responses this evening, can't tell you how grateful I am for this!
Something I'm unclear on is at which point during the hearing I ask all of my questions. I gather the school presents it's case and I can ask questions about their case here, then I make my statement in support of our case. Then it's the summing up for the school then ourselves. Where do I ask questions regarding FCO and extenuating circumstances? It seems odd to ask questions regarding these after the school present their case but before we present ours?? I'm worried I'll miss my opportunity to ask all of the questions we have at the appropriate time.
Also, we are thinking of binding everything together (no new information) with appendices etc. and taking five copies, just to make it easier for the panel to find their way around the info. We were also wondering if it would be appropriate to include copies of our questions or should we just keep those to ourselves????
Thanks.
Pickle.
I may do this, not sure I could survive the long game!pickle wrote:You could ask them at the hearing whether they are applying the 'fair, consistent & objective' test. If they say they are, then you can ask why they've not provided any evidence that your review was carried out 'fairly, consistently & objectively'.
Something I'm unclear on is at which point during the hearing I ask all of my questions. I gather the school presents it's case and I can ask questions about their case here, then I make my statement in support of our case. Then it's the summing up for the school then ourselves. Where do I ask questions regarding FCO and extenuating circumstances? It seems odd to ask questions regarding these after the school present their case but before we present ours?? I'm worried I'll miss my opportunity to ask all of the questions we have at the appropriate time.
Also, we are thinking of binding everything together (no new information) with appendices etc. and taking five copies, just to make it easier for the panel to find their way around the info. We were also wondering if it would be appropriate to include copies of our questions or should we just keep those to ourselves????
Thanks.
Pickle.
