Including IEPs as evidence in Appeals

[semb]

Thank you so much Etienne. Your reply gave me the reassurance I needed. I spoke to the Head this morning and she agreed to add the points in (I suspect even if only to get me to go away!!!). The letter now confirms both points. I am now off to (finally) send everything to the Clerk (special delivery just to make sure!)


Re: whether the anxiety is mentioned elsewhere - it's frustrating as over the years we've had so many meetings to discuss and plan and decide how to best manage Dd because of the anxiety which is clear for anyone in the class to see - yet the reports only refer to "confidence" issues. I suppose they try to make everything sound very positive, which is nice, but not best helpful in these circumstances!

Thank you once again x

[semb]

Hello again

I was just wondering if you can shed any light on the issue of admission authorities including details of waiting list positions in their written statements outlining why a place can't be offered.

I can see from other posts that you point out the Appeals Code makes clear that Appeals panels must not take account of waiting list positions in making their decisions but does this actually mean Admissions authorities shouldn't be putting these details in their cases? If so, is it a point worth mentioning in the Q&A of the admission authority's case or not particularly?

Or is it seen as reasonable for admissions authorities to include these details as part of them being clear about what procedure was followed for allocating places and why one wasn't offered to a particular child?
(I'm trying to think of a legitimate reason it might be included seeing as panels aren't meant to take account of waiting list positions in their decision making. The cynic in me wonders if schools put it in, knowing that panels are meant to disregard, but hoping making waiting position known may have some unacknowledged, maybe even subconscious impact on the panel.....I do hope not..)

Many thanks

[Etienne]

does this actually mean Admissions authorities shouldn't be putting these details in their cases?

My personal view is that they shouldn't - because of the obvious risk that a panel could be influenced.

I think you could reasonably ask what the justification is - when the panel is not allowed to take such information into account.

I'm trying to think of a legitimate reason it might be included seeing as panels aren't meant to take account of waiting list positions in their decision making. The cynic in me wonders if schools put it in, knowing that panels are meant to disregard, but hoping making waiting position known may have some unacknowledged, maybe even subconscious impact on the panel.....I do hope not..

I suspect that it usually happens through ignorance. (It's the sort of mistake that is more likely to happen when schools arrange their own appeals.)
Like you, I hope there's no hidden agenda here .......

[semb]

I think you could reasonably ask what the justification is - when the panel is not allowed to take such information into account.

Thanks for this Etienne

I suspect that it usually happens through ignorance. (It's the sort of mistake that is more likely to happen when schools arrange their own appeals.)Like you, I hope there's no hidden agenda here .......

I do worry there's an agenda. I've received the admission authority's case and it looks dishearteningly strong. I don't know if I'm just being defensive but the way it's written suggests Dd hasn't qualified when she has - they repeatedly mention she did not "automatically qualify" - which she did, she just didn't get a place as there were more qualified than places available. I know there's not a lot of point getting bogged down on this though as it's an oversubscription case.

There are a couple of points in the authority's case that don't seem to logically follow to me, but maybe I just haven't understood them. I'm going to have to go through it with a fine tooth comb trying to find any questions I can raise about their case in the hope of making a "dent" as you put it!

[semb]

Hi Etienne - I'm back again!

I've been going through the admission authority's case and have a list of 2 points of clarification and 8 questions / rebuttals of points they've made. However, I'm worried this is too much and leading me into making one of the "How not to win an oversubscription appeal" traps of talking at length at stage 1. I'm just worried that the panel may not ask any questions and may take the school's statements as fact when I think there are a few weaknesses in the arguments. But will pointing these out do more harm than good if it gives the impression that I'm being overly adversarial?

I'd appreciate your opinion (although I understand if you're out there busy enjoying the lovely weather this weekend...)

Thanks

[Etienne]

Hi semb

I'd say it depends how lengthy it all is. (8 quick questions could be preferable to 4 long-drawn out, laborious questions!)

If you'd like to send them to the Appeals Box, I'd be happy to tell you what I think.

[semb]

Thanks Etienne

I've sent my questions to the appeals box. I think maybe I am going overboard trying to pull the school's case apart rather than just making a few dents. I'd really appreciate your thoughts on whether any of the questions are worthwhile or whether I should just focus on my case.

As always, I'm very grateful for your time

[Etienne]

Hi

You've done a good analysis of the case
- but I would suggest shortening the questions, and also omitting some.

Although you're technically correct about the prejudice of admitting one more pupil - if you're part of a multiple appeal, then every appellant will be arguing for one more pupil!
For this reason I'd be inclined to avoid arguments limited to "just one more pupil", and focus on "additional pupils" (as in no. 3).

You could omit the introduction - just launch into questions.

In point 1 you could omit para. 1 to begin with. If you start with para. 2, and they don't concede, then you could use para. 1.

At the moment I think I'd focus on points:
1, 2, 3, 6, 8.

[semb]

You've done a good analysis of the case

Thanks - I find it really hard to judge these things

Thank you for all of the above pointers, I will definitely take your advice (and try to present it in a reasonable rather than confrontational manner!) I really hope my nerve doesn't fail me and I end up stating meekly "I have no questions"...

I'm working on my presentation at the moment and trying desperately to stick to the 10 essential points...I will be so relieved when this is over!

[semb]

Hello again

Unfortunately our case was unsuccessful.

I always knew that it was very unlikely to succeed given that the success rate for appeals for the school in question year after year is zero. Yet even knowing this I've found it all really upsetting.

The hearing went badly. I found it much more intimidating than I thought I would. I don't think I did as well as I could have done. I guess almost all parents are going through appeals for the first time whereas the school is very experienced at defending their corner.

Changes I would like to see to the appeals system are:

1. Schools being compelled to hold a group stage one appeal rather than being allowed to stick to repeating their case for each and every appeal where there are multiple appeals. I just think it works against the parent as the parent only has one opportunity to put their case, but where there are multiple appeals the school gets to deliver their arguments again and again. I wonder if this has an unfair influence on the panel.

2. Waiting list information to be categorically not allowed to be included in appeal cases. It's not enough to say panels shouldn't take account of the information as the only way to make sure they are not unduly influenced is to not give them the information in the first place!

2. Schools being compelled to give accurate, rather than misleading answers to questions.

I know this sounds completely bitter, (and I guess I am) but I do think as the odds are against the parent anyway the situation could be made a bit fairer by the above.

Wishing everybody still going through appeals the very best of luck - I truly hope you get the right school places for your children.

Etienne, I had a couple of extra questions I've sent to the Appeals box if you have any time to comment.

If not, I just want to thank you for all of your time and advice - I really wouldn't have known where to even begin without this site and your fantastic contribution. I really am very grateful to you (wish you'd been on my panel!!!)