Evidence

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mini me
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:33 pm

Re: Evidence

Post by mini me »

Thanks for the additional advice. I have just called the ICO. They have advised that whether or not the school can refuse this under the FOIA depends upon whether they are publicly funded or not and I should repeat the request along the lines you have already advised. I will do so, but also be prepared that I won't receive a reply in time.

There is another matter which is troubling me somewhat regarding the deadlines for submission of evidence and I have sent details to the appeals box. I do apologise for such cloak & dagger postings.

Am I right to be concerned by this and is there anything that I should do in advance of the appeal?

Also I have taken your advice with regards to how to evidence the extenuating circumstances and have produced a concise numbered report supported by external documents. I have given details of the supporting documents in the appeals box. Is this the sort of external evidence you had in mind and should I include copies of the additional documents or just take them to the appeal? I'm worried that I will be sending too many things in addition to my academic and other supporting evidence.

Thank you
Etienne
Posts: 8978
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: Evidence

Post by Etienne »

mini me wrote:Thanks for the additional advice. I have just called the ICO. They have advised that whether or not the school can refuse this under the FOIA depends upon whether they are publicly funded or not and I should repeat the request along the lines you have already advised. I will do so, but also be prepared that I won't receive a reply in time.
I was hoping they would give a clearer answer regarding the validity of the question!

The school is certainly publicly funded. It is therefore a public body, and subject to the FOIA.
There is another matter which is troubling me somewhat regarding the deadlines for submission of evidence .....
You don't need to be concerned about this. They ought to have given you a deadline - but, if not, you simply have to be seen to act reasonably.

For example, it would not be reasonable to turn up to the hearing with anything more than a very minimal amount of new evidence (which no one else has had an opportunity to digest).

In the absence of any instructions to the contrary, I suggest you allow the clerk no less than 3-4 working days for him to distribute any new paperwork to the other parties. (5 or 8 working days is probably more typical as a published guideline, but I'm trying to come up with a figure that couldn't be seen as unreasonable in the circumstances.)
Also I have taken your advice with regards to how to evidence the extenuating circumstances and have produced a concise numbered report supported by external documents. I have given details of the supporting documents in the appeals box. Is this the sort of external evidence you had in mind and should I include copies of the additional documents or just take them to the appeal? I'm worried that I will be sending too many things in addition to my academic and other supporting evidence.
I agree - now that I've seen it, I think it's far too much for something that isn't going to be a particularly strong argument.

Let's take the Ofsted report as an example.
There is a web link available, so just summarise your key point in a sentence or two, and provide the web link so that panel members can check if they want to. (You could also take one paper copy of the report with you, but don't burden the panel with it unless anyone asks for it.)

I'm not convinced about the usefulness of most of the other documents, because it's not the proposals for reorganisation that matter - it's any impact they had on the school and families.
For this reason I would include the petition, because there is a web link, and it helps show this was quite a traumatic time for everyone concerned. Again, you could take one paper copy with you, but don't burden the panel with it unnecessarily. If it's on the council website, no one is really going to dispute its veracity.

Now that I've 'pruned' this section, it's probably so brief that you could include it within your written statement rather than as a separate appendix!

Your case should look more 'balanced'.

Just my thoughts! :)
Etienne
mini me
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:33 pm

Re: Evidence

Post by mini me »

Thank you, you have helped to put my mind at rest. I think I'm feeling slightly overwhelmed and a bit panicky :oops:

Once again, deepest thanks.
mini me
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:33 pm

Re: Evidence

Post by mini me »

Hello again

I have now received the school case.

Firstly, I'm concerned that the school's case contains details of the waiting list position.

The school have decided they can now accommondate additional pupils above the PAN and have done so with effect from 1st March. Have I understood correctly that there must be reference to this on the school website? The website is still quoting the original PAN.

The school case specifies the expected KS2 SATS levels of pupils who gain places. As this is favourable to us would you recommend we say anything to highlight this further or just let the evidence speak for itself when we present our case?

Thanks once again for all your help :D
Etienne
Posts: 8978
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: Evidence

Post by Etienne »

mini me wrote:Firstly, I'm concerned that the school's case contains details of the waiting list position.
"Appeal panels must not take account of where the admission authority has placed a child on the waiting list, or of the fact that appeals have not been made in respect of other children on the waiting list. Appeal panels must not make any decision relating to the placement of a child on a waiting list. (Appeals Code)"
The school have decided they can now accommondate additional pupils above the PAN and have done so with effect from 1st March. Have I understood correctly that there must be reference to this on the school website?
Technically, yes - but it's unlikely to have caused you an injustice.
The school case specifies the expected KS2 SATS levels of pupils who gain places. As this is favourable to us would you recommend we say anything to highlight this further .... ?
Just a brief mention would be fine.
Etienne
mini me
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:33 pm

Re: Evidence

Post by mini me »

Many thanks Etienne. I have very much appreciated all the time you have spent answering my questions over the past few weeks and your help in trying to steer me in the right direction. I echo what others have said that I simply couldn't have done this without all your advice and this forum. It is certainly a treasure trove :D

I will let you know how it all goes. I am not expecting a positive result but at least I will know that I did the best that I could and have no regrets.

Good luck to everyone else going through appeals at the moment. I wish you and your children all the best x
mini me
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:33 pm

Re: Evidence

Post by mini me »

Just to update. I have now had my appeal and am waiting for the result.

In time I will add some feedback but I just wanted to say that the hearing itself was not as bad as I had expected. I was physically shaking before I went in as I was so nervous but the panel were really nice and made the process as relaxed as it could have been.

I felt prepared thanks to the wonderful advice I have been given and for which I am extremely grateful, but I was surprised at how little questioning took place. It was a combined stage 1 and 2 appeal and the panel did not question the school at stage one which I had presumed was because I had asked relevant questions about previous class sizes and net capacity (which incidentally was over 100 more than the new increased PAN) However I was also not asked any questions about the extenuating circumstances or anything about my case by the panel. The school asked me about the difference in current working at levels which were vastly different from the last school report. The only questions I was asked by the panel related to the application process itself and whether I had been offered another preference school.

Anyway, wishing everyone going through this the very best of luck. xx
mini me
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:33 pm

Re: Evidence

Post by mini me »

Sorry, just to add I did eventually receive the information from the school that I had been originally refused approximately 24 hours before the appeal along with some other information that I realised had not been fully answered in the first response. I was able to use some of it but due to the short notice was not able to explore one line of questioning. I am not sure whether this would have added anything to my case though.
Etienne
Posts: 8978
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: Evidence

Post by Etienne »

I was surprised at how little questioning took place. It was a combined stage 1 and 2 appeal
My suspicion is that if they avoid a group stage one, it's because either the admission authority or the panel (or both) are scared of facing all the parents together ....... :?
the panel did not question the school at stage one which I had presumed was because I had asked relevant questions about previous class sizes and net capacity
A combined stage 1/2 incentivises them not to ask questions - because they then have to ask the same questions at every other hearing. (Each appellant has the right to the same information). This is tedious and time-consuming, and it's why a combined stage 1/2 for multiple appeals, whilst legal, is a bad idea.
I can think of no reason for not having a group hearing - other than they are afraid of it.
The only questions I was asked by the panel related to the application process itself and whether I had been offered another preference school.
Again, it could be because of all the time being wasted on the constant repetition of stage one.
the panel were really nice and made the process as relaxed as it could have been.
Good to hear that ..... :)
Etienne
mini me
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:33 pm

Re: Evidence

Post by mini me »

The appeal was unsuccessful :(

I had always expected it to be a long shot so I have taken the news quite well, unless it just hasn't hit me yet! I gave it everything and I can now move on with no regrets. However, what I have found to be very disappointing is that I have found out that there actually no successful appeals. I find it very hard to believe that there was not one case worthy (by no means do I mean mine) and that the school's case was so watertight that they couldn't admit one more pupil.


Many thanks for all the help and advice.
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