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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:48 pm 
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Thanks a lot Etienne.

My kid is successful in Birmingham county where CEM was the exam style and exam just finished couple of days before BUCKS, can this be considered as strong academic evidence?

How does below information sound please?

1. She is in top set group set for math and English at school
2. Predicted SATs score for end of year is 109, where as she scored 108 in the recent mock test. So, her expected year end score is much more than 109 now.
3. In time tables test, she achieved 19th level.
4. She is a fluent English reader.
5. She got 7 marks extra to qualifying mark at Birmingham 11 plus exam.

Other things:

One of the twin qualified.

If supply evidences of seasonal eye allergies, will it be good? is it worth mentioning this or not?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:59 pm 
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11plusreviewBR wrote:
My kid is successful in Birmingham county where CEM was the exam style and exam just finished couple of days before BUCKS, can this be considered as strong academic evidence?
Although it's CEM, the standardisation wouldn't have been the same.
It may be that the Birmingham qualifying score is harder to achieve than 121 in Bucks - but I can't see how a panel in Bucks would know how to compare the scores.

Quote:
1. She is in top set group set for math and English at school
But is it a high achieving school and can you prove it by reference to league tables or to Ofsted?
Top set in an average or below average school might not be as good as bottom set in a high performing school!

Quote:
2. Predicted SATs score for end of year is 109, where as she scored 108 in the recent mock test. So, her expected year end score is much more than 109 now.
What is she predicted for reading and maths at the end of Y6? Is it 109 for both?
Is she predicted to be "at greater depth" for writing?

Quote:
3. In time tables test, she achieved 19th level.
Not sure what that means! :?

Quote:
4. She is a fluent English reader.
How fluent? Evidence?

Quote:
5. She got 7 marks extra to qualifying mark at Birmingham 11 plus exam.
Worth a mention, but see my caution further up.

Quote:
One of the twin qualified.
I don't think this helps at a review, unless she felt under pressure because she's always been overshadowed by a higher performing twin.

Quote:
If supply evidences of seasonal eye allergies, will it be good? is it worth mentioning this or not?
Is there any evidence that she was affected at the time of the test?


What was her attainment in reading, writing and maths at the end of each year from year 2 to year 5?
Was it "working towards the expected level", "working at", or "working beyond"?

Sorry if I've missed it, but have you answered Guest55's question "How long have your children been at school in England?"?

The success rate for reviews with a score of 120 tends to be quite high at around 87%.
Sorry to be raising so many points with you, but we're trying to avoid your being among the 13% or so who don't get through.
As I've written elsewhere, an unsuccessful review could seriously prejudice any appeal you may wish to make to an independent panel in March. This is all explained in the Bucks sticky:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=50029

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:38 am 
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Hello. We were in exactly the same position with twins in a previous year - one qualified, and one did not. I really feel for you. It was so distressing for both of our children so I know what you are going through.

The comments from everyone else are right. You must focus on the academic evidence and strong support from your current headteacher to show that your non qualifier would be best suited to a grammar.

But, if I were you, I would also include a little bit about the fact your child is a twin. For our review, I explained very briefly the impact it was having emotionally on both twins already (my qualifier was violently sick when we told them the other's result), the detrimental effect it would have on them both going forwards if they were split up (they had had a previous background with challenges which meant they were important support to each other - you may have similar, perhaps with language issues, I don't know?). It is all quite subjective and (of course) not relevant to the test the panel is applying, but the panel are real people. People reading your story on here are very sympathetic to the situation you find yourself in with twins. The panel will likely feel the same way. I wouldn't go overboard with what you say, as the key thing is academic evidence. But it does make your child's review slightly different to others, which could make the difference.

I really do wish you the best of luck with this. I hope you succeed.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:49 am 
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Hi Needhelp, Thanks a lot for the tip and good wishes. I totally agree that, both kids are upset since results have come. Both are best friends and separating them will have lot of negative impact emotionally. I will concentrate on securing as much academic evidences possible . Your explanation about twins situation is more effective , though I am not in a position to express as effective as you are. Is it possible to share all the points you have mentioned please. Thanks again.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:00 am 
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11plusreviewBR wrote:
Hi Needhelp, Thanks a lot for the tip and good wishes. I totally agree that, both kids are upset since results have come. Both are best friends and separating them will have lot of negative impact emotionally. I will concentrate on securing as much academic evidences possible . Your explanation about twins situation is more effective , though I am not in a position to express as effective as you are. Is it possible to share all the points you have mentioned please. Thanks again.
Please tread carefully! I'd be happy for the review panel to be made aware of the situation with regard to the twins in a short single sentence - but more than that, and it risks taking the focus away from the academic case.

See the Q&As:
      https://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appea ... cation#b24
      Quote:
      As far as non-qualification is concerned, then a twin’s case has to be decided strictly on its own particular merits, irrespective of the other twin.

      Quote:
      Having a twin is more relevant when appealing for a place at a particular school that is oversubscribed. (“They couldn’t bear to be parted,” “It would be logistically difficult for us to get them to two different schools,” “Here is a letter of support from our GP warning of the emotional consequences of splitting them up”, etc.) Sadly, these are not issues that can really be considered at the non-qualification stage.

The exception would be what I've mentioned already - if one twin felt under a lot of pressure in the test because she has always been overshadowed by her higher performing twin.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:15 am 
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Etienne wrote:
11plusreviewBR wrote:
Hi Needhelp, Thanks a lot for the tip and good wishes. I totally agree that, both kids are upset since results have come. Both are best friends and separating them will have lot of negative impact emotionally. I will concentrate on securing as much academic evidences possible . Your explanation about twins situation is more effective , though I am not in a position to express as effective as you are. Is it possible to share all the points you have mentioned please. Thanks again.
Please tread carefully! I'd be happy for the review panel to be made aware of the situation with regard to the twins in a short single sentence - but more than that, and it risks taking the focus away from the academic case.

See the Q&As:
      https://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appea ... cation#b24
      Quote:
      As far as non-qualification is concerned, then a twin’s case has to be decided strictly on its own particular merits, irrespective of the other twin.

      Quote:
      Having a twin is more relevant when appealing for a place at a particular school that is oversubscribed. (“They couldn’t bear to be parted,” “It would be logistically difficult for us to get them to two different schools,” “Here is a letter of support from our GP warning of the emotional consequences of splitting them up”, etc.) Sadly, these are not issues that can really be considered at the non-qualification stage.

The exception would be what I've mentioned already - if one twin felt under a lot of pressure in the test because she has always been overshadowed by her higher performing twin.

Or could you just mention being a twin and both wanting to qualify put a little extra pressure on her on the day which I feel /may have resulted in her missing the qualifying score by 0.45 , or something like that ? Dollyx


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:53 pm 
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Hi All,

I totally understand that review is purely based on academic evidences and I will not stress too much on twins/family emotions. It is our bad luck to miss very narrow.

Head teacher has given recommendations 3 for grammar school suitability and 2 for attitude.

Head lines is , year end predictions is about 110 for math, 110 for reading. Where as in recent math test, kid achieved 108 and ability to go beyond 110, but this is not mentioned. For writing - not working at GDS. Head teacher is not ready to have a word with us stating busy.

In summary she has written: Although rated 3 for suitability, I do believe that on this occasion of grammar school would be an appropriate placement and I am happy to recommend her. child has found some of the grammatical aspects of writing more challenging, hence our reservation. However we would expect her to meet the age related standards. She is working within the upper range of age related standard for reading and maths.

She mentioned that, child is hard working and always gives 100%. She is popular through the school for her humour and her confidence increased significantly over the last year. child represented school at county level in sports ans music.

Her parents are highly supportive and work with child at home to address any area of improvements that we have highlighted. Child has close relation ship with her twin sister and I would be concerned about the impact on her self-esteem if she is not able to join her in attending grammar school. I hope that out come of the review is a positive one.

Kindly help me understand my next steps. As gap is just 0.45 marks, do you recommend us to go with selection review? what chances do we have to be successful? Thanks in advance for help


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:18 pm 
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Dollydripmat wrote:
Or could you just mention being a twin and both wanting to qualify put a little extra pressure on her on the day which I feel /may have resulted in her missing the qualifying score by 0.45 , or something like that ? Dollyx
Yes, I think that would be fine, Dolly. :)

Etienne wrote:
What was her attainment in reading, writing and maths at the end of each year from year 2 to year 5?
Was it "working towards the expected level", "working at", or "working beyond"?

Sorry if I've missed it, but have you answered Guest55's question "How long have your children been at school in England?"?

11plusreviewBR wrote:
Kindly help me understand my next steps. As gap is just 0.45 marks, do you recommend us to go with selection review? what chances do we have to be successful?
Thanks for all the information.
Before I comment further, could you help with the questions I posed above? They are being asked for good reasons. (For example, the less time the children have been in this country, the easier it might be to explain any difficulties with English.)

The end of year attainment for each subject ought to be on the summer term reports you've received each year, although school reports might have used different wording from "working towards the expected level", "working at", or "working beyond", or they might have given some sort of grade.
Alternatively, it ought to be on the headteacher's review summary sheet (Progress Chart, section 3?) if you've now got a copy, although again the terminology might be different, e.g. "HNM" (has not met expectations), "EXS" (has met), GDS (greater depth).

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:36 pm 
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Hi 11plusreviewBR

Many thanks for the additional information you've sent me. I've given the matter a lot of thought.

Quote:
what chances do we have to be successful?
I have great sympathy for your situation, but having weighed up all the evidence, I wouldn't want to be less than honest with you.

I could be wrong - but, on the evidence available at the moment, I fear it is more likely than not that you would be among the 13% or so who do not get through with a score of 120.

My reasons are as follows:

      • With just one exception, every single grade in the progress chart from Y2 to Y5 is more or less average.

      • The headteacher is not predicting 111-120 or GDS at the end of Y6.

      • The headteacher recommendation is "with reservations". It is a recommendation, but ideally one would like to see something in the range 1:1 to 2:2.

      • The statement of support says some really nice things, but they're not always relevant (popularity, sense of humour, sport, etc.).
      On my scale of 1-6 .....
      https://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appea ... cation#b41
      ..... the level of support is closer to a 1 than a 6 (which, to be fair, does fit with a '3' recommendation).


If I were a review panel member, I would be genuinely sympathetic, and would fully take on board that there's a shortfall of just 0.45 of a mark - but my honest conclusion would be that the alternative academic evidence at the moment would suggest a score lower than 120, not higher.

You are free to go through with a review if you wish and see what happens, even though I can't see what the academic case would be.
No one can be entirely sure what any particular review panel is going to decide. No one can possibly say "There's no chance at all". My words at the beginning of this post were chosen very carefully ("I fear it is more likely than not .......").
However, as I've cautioned elsewhere, if you go ahead with a review which turns out to be unsuccessful, it could seriously prejudice any subsequent appeal you make.

What would I do in your place? Personally I would be inclined to skip the review and wait for an appeal, especially if you think that between now and May your daughter could progress to the point where 111-120 and GDS are being predicted. Children sometimes develop rapidly during the course of Y6.

As you don't have any CAT scores from school, I would also consider the possibility of an educational psychologist's report.
https://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appea ... ication#b3
This may (or may not) provide useful additional evidence of ability.

The problem with an appeal is that you would probably be up against oversubscription as well as non-qualification. However, if the aim is to have both children at the same school, it is at the oversubscription part of an appeal where the argument about the emotional impact of separating twins could very much work to your advantage.

Hope this helps. Best I can do. The decision "What next?" has to be yours. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:44 pm 
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Etienne, with regard to your penultimate paragraph, some grammar schools have a point in their oversubscription criteria where should admitting one of a pair of twins take the school to PAN, the other twin would receive a place. Would those circumstances help the OP if she were to be successful at an appeal and want a place at the sibling's allocated school?


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