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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:25 pm 
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Hi,
My son score was 114 in Bucks test. our selection was unsuccessful, his big failure was in NV 90, he passed in Maths 124, and verbal 122. We mentioned many extenuating reasons in the S.R but were not enough for the panel to be considered to affect the result.

His teacher recommendation was 2.2, the predicted performance for July 19 is 111-120 in Reading and Maths and is ( EXS ) in writing now we got a mock sats result from school (112 spel, 110 math, 107 reading)
his teacher mentioned his capability in maths in specific as he joined maths mastery in secondary school since last Sep despite his youngest age in his class.

We believe that there are many extenuating and special reasons that we can rely on to argue about the ( Fair, consistent, Objective ) selection review.

Do you think these results can find any luck in an appeal, before digging into many extenuating reasons.?
Thank you


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:14 pm 
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Welcome to Appeals! :)

Be sure to read the Bucks sticky, if you haven't already done so:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=57343


You have three obstacles to overcome.

1. There seems to be a huge element of luck in FCO. What one panel considers to be "FCO", another panel will find "Not FCO".

2. For academic evidence, do you think you 'tick' most items on the list?
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... cation#b11

3. Don't overlook reasons for wanting a place:
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... -school#c2

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Etienne


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:22 pm 
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Many thanks for your reply,
sorry for the long explanation bellow, but i found it worth to mention all points relied on.
I started with appeal letter, I will rely on these points to argue about the(FCO)
1- The SRP mentioned that my son would not be appropriately placed in grammar school, because his academic evidence does not demonstrate his suitability ( his score was 114, but he scored in Maths 124, verbal 122, NV 90)
What evidence they would like to see to prove his ability besides
- his teacher recommendations 2.2
- his score is the best in his class in an outstanding school
- he joined a mastery maths class in year 7 in a secondary school.
- he plays violin and had a distinguish in his last grade 1 test.
- his big fail in 11+ was in NV

I don't know if these reasons can be considered not fair, or not consistent or not objective or all of them together.
Do i need to be precise in classifying these reasons into these 3 categories (FCO)

2- We mentioned in the SR (extenuating reasons ) that English is my son's 3rd language after ( french and Arabic ) because we moved from Syria late 2015. The SRP said that moving from Syria doesn't explain the gap in his score.
My argument would be that moving from Syria is not the main issue, but starting in Y3 from zero in English and become the first among his class is the main reason that proves his capability.
Do you think this argument is a reason to show that their decision is not Fair or objective or I need to put it into the extenuating reasons.

I mentioned in my SR letter these 3 points, but the SRP have not give any comment for these points in their outcome, It makes me feel that they have not read this letter for any reason and if they did, it is worthy to argue about the (FOC) these points are:
1- We still live in staffordshire and my son needed to travel more than 2hours twice to bucks to do the test and he didn't sleep well in a hotel before the test, we think it affected his score while other pupil are doing the exams close to where they live.
Do you think it can be considered an extenuated reason

2- As My wife works in Milton Keynes, I mentioned in the SR that allocating my son in this bucks school will give a huge help for the family and my son to live close to where his mom is working. Taking into consideration that we will move by the end of may to the catchment area to increase our chance in this appeal. The SRP didn't mention this point
Do you think it is good to mention this point as extenuating reasons? and show them how really we are wanting and needing the school

3- during the summer holiday before the test the family had to travel to Syria for a very compelling reasons for more than 1 month, so my son lost any chance to practice at least NV ( for which practice can really make a difference )

Do you think these 3 reason can add to my appeal??

Many thanks Etienne, Any suggestion would be extremely helpful.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:44 am 
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Posts: 8384
FCO: for the present all you need put on your appeal form is what I suggest in D11:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=57343
      Quote:
      • You need only write "At the hearing we shall wish to challenge whether the Selection Review process was 'fair, consistent & objective', but have not yet seen the school's written case explaining why the process was FCO.
      We would respectfully point out that para. 3.13b of the Appeals Code puts the onus on the admission authority to prove its case for 'fair, consistent & objective', not on parents to disprove it
      ".

If you would like to email to our Appeals Box a copy of your review request, headteacher's review form, and the clerk's notes of the review, I'll see if I can suggest some specific questions for you to raise about FCO at the hearing.
Details of the Appeals Box are given here:
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=9907&p=108023#p108023
(Entirely up to you if you want to do this.)

Quote:
2- We mentioned in the SR (extenuating reasons ) that English is my son's 3rd language after ( french and Arabic ) because we moved from Syria late 2015. The SRP said that moving from Syria doesn't explain the gap in his score.
My argument would be that moving from Syria is not the main issue, but starting in Y3 from zero in English and become the first among his class is the main reason that proves his capability.
Do you think this argument is a reason to show that their decision is not Fair or objective or I need to put it into the extenuating reasons.
• As far as FCO is concerned, if the panel may not have understood your main argument here, I would need to see exactly what was in the paperwork you sent them.
• With regard to academic evidence for the appeal, the fact that he made such remarkable progress is a good point to make.
• It could also be argued as an extenuating circumstance, bearing in mind that he is only predicted EXS for Writing (which might not normally be good enough for either SRP or for an appeal panel). Curious that the weakness in the 11+ was in NVR!
NVR ought to suit those with a mathematical mind who have English as an additional language!

Quote:
I mentioned in my SR letter these 3 points, but the SRP have not give any comment for these points in their outcome, It makes me feel that they have not read this letter for any reason and if they did, it is worthy to argue about the (FOC) these points are:
1- We still live in staffordshire and my son needed to travel more than 2hours twice to bucks to do the test and he didn't sleep well in a hotel before the test, we think it affected his score while other pupil are doing the exams close to where they live.
Do you think it can be considered an extenuated reason
It would take too long for the review panel to comment on every single point - what matters is whether the clerk's notes show that this point was considered.
It should certainly be mentioned as an extenuating circumstance for the appeal panel to consider.

Quote:
2- As My wife works in Milton Keynes, I mentioned in the SR that allocating my son in this bucks school will give a huge help for the family and my son to live close to where his mom is working.
This could be a point to make in the third part of your appeal (reasons for wanting a place). It wasn't a matter for the review panel - they are only concerned with academic evidence and extenuating circumstances.

Quote:
Taking into consideration that we will move by the end of may to the catchment area to increase our chance in this appeal. The SRP didn't mention this point
Do you think it is good to mention this point as extenuating reasons? and show them how really we are wanting and needing the school
Not a matter for the SRP.
It's not an extenuating circumstance. (Extenuating circumstances are reasons for underperformance in the 11+.)
It might be worth mentioning to the appeal panel. Normally they are unlikely to give weight to a house move that has yet to take place (unless there is proof that it will actually take place). However, if your wife is working in MK, they might believe it.
I assume you've visited the schools you are appealing for?

Quote:
3- during the summer holiday before the test the family had to travel to Syria for a very compelling reasons for more than 1 month, so my son lost any chance to practice at least NV ( for which practice can really make a difference )
I doubt this will carry any weight - unless perhaps the compelling reasons were very stressful for your son.

Finally, some comments on the academic evidence!

Quote:
- his teacher recommendations 2.2
If your son is best in his class at an outstanding school, why not a 1:1?

Quote:
- his score is the best in his class in an outstanding school
Is there any evidence to show that it is outstanding?

Quote:
- he joined a mastery maths class in year 7 in a secondary schoo
Good! Will there be a letter of support from a maths teacher?

Quote:
- he plays violin and had a distinguish in his last grade 1 test.
I wouldn't mention this.
Have you not read our suggestions for academic evidence? I mentioned B11 in my previous post.
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... cation#b11
      Quote:
      j. High achievement in intellectual activities – for example, music grade 4 (because of the theory content in the higher grades)

Quote:
- his big fail in 11+ was in NV
The panel will see this anyway - no need to highlight a weakness!


Your case will need to be made with absolute clarity. Please look again at the summary I have provided in D11:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=57343

We'll do our best to help you with any further questions you may have. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:44 am 
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Thank you very much Etienne,

I sent all evidences to the appeal box.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:27 pm 
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Quote:
The SRP said that moving from Syria doesn't explain the gap in his score.
My argument would be that moving from Syria is not the main issue, but starting in Y3 from zero in English and become the first among his class is the main reason that proves his capability.
Agreed. There is no evidence the SRP took into account that he arrived in the UK without knowing any English.

Quote:
1- We still live in staffordshire and my son needed to travel more than 2hours twice to bucks to do the test and he didn't sleep well in a hotel before the test, we think it affected his score while other pupil are doing the exams close to where they live.
I agree - there is no evidence the SRP considered this point, although it is clearly stated in your letter.

Another argument against FCO is that the clerk's notes state "No further evidence to explain the gap between 114 and 121". This completely ignores the very high NFER scores shown in section 4 of the headteacher's review form.

Quote:
3- during the summer holiday before the test the family had to travel to Syria for a very compelling reasons for more than 1 month, so my son lost any chance to practice at least NV ( for which practice can really make a difference )
Lack of practice is rarely a strong argument for a review or appeal because - whether we believe it or not - the official view is that the familiarisation test is all that is needed.
What is the evidence for saying that practice can really make a difference for NVR?

Etienne wrote:
I assume you've visited the schools you are appealing for?
It is quite probable you will be asked at appeal if you or your wife have visited the school in question.
If the answer is "No", it will not make a good impression. (However, if the school refuses to allow a visit at this time of year, the panel would of course understand that it is not your fault.)

You need some very specific reasons for wanting a place.
Have you not read C2?
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... -school#c2
It's not a good idea to argue "I've read all about the school online" or "Any grammar school will do"!
The panel will not be hearing appeals for any grammar school. Each panel will be hearing appeals for one particular school.

Quote:
As My wife works in Milton Keynes .....
Can you provide some evidence? A letter from her employer? An MK council tax bill?
This wouldn't be needed, though, if you have proof of moving in time for the appeal.

Quote:
I sent all evidences to the appeal box
The class teacher has written a very nice letter, and it is good of the primary school to be so helpful. However, the SATs mocks do not help your case. It would have helped if all these scores were in the range 111-120.
Admittedly there are a couple of months to go before the real SATs, but if he is so strong at maths, why did he score only 110, and perform better at SPAG?

Moving on ......
Perhaps you could now draft an appeal submission in three parts.
Here are some suggestions to get you started.

The FCO case seems very clear (although it is up to the panel whether or not they accept it).

FCO
• At the hearing we shall wish to challenge whether the Selection Review process was 'fair, consistent & objective', but have not yet seen the school's written case explaining why the process was FCO.
We would respectfully point out that para. 3.13b of the Appeals Code puts the onus on the admission authority to prove its case for 'fair, consistent & objective', not on parents to disprove it.
• For the present we would draw the IAP's attention to the fact that the clerk's notes state "No further evidence to explain the gap between 114 and 121". This completely ignores the very high NFER scores shown in section 4 of the headteacher's review form.
• Although the move from Syria, was noted, there is no evidence the SRP took into account that X arrived in the UK without knowing any English, and no real recognition of what has been achieved in a new country in the space of three years.
• The SRP have not considered that X had to travel from Staffordshire in order to take the test, had a sleepless night in a hotel, and sat the test in unfamiliar surroundings.

Academic Evidence & Extenuating Circumstances (I've changed my mind about mentioning NVR):
• The rapid academic progress X has made since arriving in Y3 with no knowledge of English.
• The exceptional NFER test scores the headteacher has reported in section 4 of the review form.
• The 2:2 recommendation and support from a good school.
• KS2 predictions of 111-120 in Maths & Reading (accepted by the review panel).
• EXS for Writing, despite the handicap of EAL (English as an additional language).
• Accepted for Maths master class at secondary school.
• Test sat in unfamiliar surroundings. Journey from Staffordshire the day before, and sleepless night in a hotel.
• We think the NVR test result was a complete 'blip'. This type of test ought to have suited a pupil with a mathematical mind and EAL!
• Most of the summer holiday spent in Syria for compelling reasons. This was disruptive in the period leading up to the 11+.

Reasons for wanting a place
• ????

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:54 pm 
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Thank you very much for the explanation

(What is the evidence for saying that practice can really make a difference for NVR?)
I will try to do some research about this point, if I found something and add it to my supportive evidence, would have a positive reaction from the panel ?

( Not visiting the school )

As we are not living there, Unfortunately we missed the open day.
I am not sure that a individual visit was offered when contacting one of the schools we applied for.
we did some open days in comprehensive and independent schools where we live now, it didn't help in making any clear judgement rather than relying on school online information.
In another way, we took our decision to move to the area where my wife . we checked the best closest grammar to her job, put them in the first and second choice in the admission form.
As my son show a big interest in academic achievement, so do we as parents, we are quite sure that each one of the two schools we are appealing for would be the best for him.

(Can you provide some evidence? A letter from her employer? An MK council tax bill?)
I will provide an employer letter, and hopefully sign a tenancy agreement next week, to move by mid of May.

Reasons for wanting a place
- moving to the catchment area.
-We do believe that being in a competitive would be the best for our son to make him show his exact potentials.

A point can be added, as he did the 11+ in our county, his score allows him to apply for one of the Grammar schools, which is far away from we live now where we are planning to move in the same time, but we was offered a boarding place in this school ( I think it is one of a few schools that offer this option in the UK ). Do you think this point is an add to his capability to be in a grammar school ?

Thank you for concluding the points in the briefing you did.
Do you think it doesn't need more explanation and mentioning again the points shown in the letter previously?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:41 pm 
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hilarion wrote:
...NVR?
I will try to do some research about this point, if I found something and add it to my supportive evidence, would have a positive reaction from the panel ?
Possibly - if it's from a reliable source.

Quote:
I am not sure that a individual visit was offered when contacting one of the schools we applied for.
It sounds as if you didn't ask! :)

Quote:
we did some open days in comprehensive and independent schools where we live now, it didn't help in making any clear judgement rather than relying on school online information.
The point I'm trying to make is that the panel is more likely to be impressed if you have visited the school.
If you were making an important purchase, such as a house, wouldn't you want to go and see it for yourself, even if it meant a long journey?

Quote:
As my son show a big interest in academic achievement, so do we as parents, we are quite sure that each one of the two schools we are appealing for would be the best for him.
Any grammar school will do so long as it's not too far away?


Quote:
Reasons for wanting a place
- moving to the catchment area.
This is a start.

Quote:
-We do believe that being in a competitive would be the best for our son to make him show his exact potentials.
So any grammar school will do?

Look at examples A, B, C in C2a (viii) where parents have specific reasons for the school in question:
https://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appea ... -school#c2

Quote:
A point can be added, as he did the 11+ in our county, his score allows him to apply for one of the Grammar schools, which is far away from we live now where we are planning to move in the same time, but we was offered a boarding place in this school ( I think it is one of a few schools that offer this option in the UK ). Do you think this point is an add to his capability to be in a grammar school ?
No. Comparisons with other parts of the country don't seem to carry much weight. I think it would be a distraction.

Quote:
Do you think it doesn't need more explanation and mentioning again the points shown in the letter previously?
If the panel want explanations, they will ask you at the hearing. For the present best to keep it simple - use clear, concise points.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:10 pm 
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Many thanks for your comments.
I am to submit my appeal online, when, submitting the form do you suggest using the same text you have suggested previously and hopefully during the hearing I will explain more these points when needed, or shall I give more explanation right now in the form online?
thank you


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:26 pm 
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hilarion wrote:
...... or shall I give more explanation right now in the form online?
thank you
No! :)

      Etienne wrote:
      If the panel want explanations, they will ask you at the hearing. For the present best to keep it simple - use clear, concise points.

      Q&As, B21:
      Quote:
      What really matters is the evidence, not what you write or say


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