Inner vs eastern vs southern

ginx · Post by **ginx** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:55 pm

Interesting if controversial views, play.

Life certainly isn't fair.

serendippyty · Post by **serendippyty** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:05 pm

See I don't think it is necessarily about that, I think in the southern area, in particular Stratford, you have several small independent junior schools and not so many independent senior schools so parents look to the grammars. In Stratford itself you have The Croft and Stratford Prep that have no high schools so have become feeder schools to the grammar... that leaves less places for state educated children. The independent schools traditionally gear teaching towards passing exams, be it grammar or independent high school exams so the pupils are advantaged. That puts pressure on others to tutor their children to give a better chance which means children are coming out with higher marks that are not necessarily reflective of their natural ability.

That and Stratford High having a very big intake in Year 7 which is a little off-putting (although I am very impressed with the high school).

play · Post by **play** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:30 pm

I don't think 11+ marks are an indication of natural intelligence, except for the odd few, - perhap some with very high marks. I think they are an indication of how prepared the child was. It is ultimately all about extra work (tutoring - by parents or a private tutor, I see no difference between the two and cannot understand why parents who tutor look down at those who pay for tutoring. Some parents are not capable of tutoring) or how well a private school prepares a child (money). Without extra work, my children would have failed.

serendippyty · Post by **serendippyty** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:43 pm

I don't look down on anyone who tutors whether self tutored or paid for. It is not something I would do but that doesn't make it wrong! It is definitely more rife in the southern area though

Okanagan · Post by **Okanagan** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:04 pm

Play's figures confirm what I was seeing from ds's results - in percentile terms he was significantly higher for the county as a whole than for the South alone.

But the figures don't show that the children are brighter in South Warwickshire, only that a smaller proportion of them who are eligible actually take the exam. If you had two equal populations and in one (A) the top half took a test, and in the other (B) the top quarter took it you'd expect the average score of group B to be higher. In fact you'd expect a candidate who was in the top 5% of group A to only be in the top 10% of group B.

Higher competition for places in the South is probably just leading to more self selection - so the Eastern area is analagous to group A in the example above, and the Southern area to group B.

The Southern priority circle is 17 miles - and includes all of Warwick, Leamington,Solihuill, Redditch, Evesham, half of Coventry, etc., whereas the Eastern circle is only 10 miles (so in actual area terms only about 1/3 the size of the South), and only includes Rugby, Daventry, Lutterworth, Southam and a smaller proportion of Coventry - of which really only Rugby Borough is in the inner area. The number taking the exam in Southern area was almost exactly 1.5 times the number taking the Eastern exam - yet the population of the Southern area will be a lot more than 1.5 times that of the Eastern area. In contrast the number of places available in the South is only 1.16 times as many.

If we had the figures available to calculate the ratio of YR6 children:grammar places there would almost certainly be a big difference between the inner East Area (lowest), outer East Area and South (highest). So its not surprising that the scores required reflect that. But those ratios would vary across every area where grammar schools exist, not just between East and South Warwickshire - it's only because Warwickshire has the same exam but effectively two different areas that it becomes apparent. If you standardised East and South seperately you wouldn't notice the difference as much - in the same way that you can't say is East Warwickshire a higher or lower standard than Bucks (where they have a fixed pass mark) or Medway (where a fixed percentage pass) or other areas where 11+ is opt-out rather than opt-in. As standardisation is usually only against a cohort, not a whole population (although Kent I think do standardise against the whole population) you can't compare results from one region to another. There's no such beast as a standard standardised score!

play · Post by **play** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:13 pm

They show the Eastern area is full of children who scored much lower marks than the Southern area in the same exam and would stand no chance of a place in the Southern area.

What does the exam select on? Is it ability during October 2012? If so, those awarded places in the South are on average of higher ability than the Eastern Area on that date and perhaps beyond.

Not one child scoring 310 would get a place in the Southern Area. The Eastern Area will be full of such children! Draw your own conclusion. I say Southern intake are on average a much higher ability during Oct 2012 than Eastern.

I think everyone knows it but are to afraid to say it.

hopeful · Post by **hopeful** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:32 pm

I am surprised the entire Warwickshire cohort did not sit the Bham and Walsall 11+ as free mocks - practice!

this just wouldn't have occurred to me - I was asked by a teacher (not from our primary school) if my dc was sitting the Birmingham exam as well and I was surprised to be asked as we had no intention of trying for a place at a Birmingham grammar school. It would seem odd to send my kids on such a long journey to school every day for seven years.

In hindsight, using it as "practice" sounds like a plan of sorts, but a little confusing for the child.

Okanagan · Post by **Okanagan** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:39 pm

play wrote:I say Southern intake are on average a much higher ability during Oct 2012 than Eastern.

The Southern area grammar intake is not the same as the Southern area Y6 population though - so you can't generalise on that basis.

It's the system which dictates the number of grammar places, and the area which they apply to, which causes the variation in the average scores of the intake - that doesn't say anything about the overall average standard of the population as a whole though.

And by the way the Eastern Warwickshire inner area is not by any means the lowest standardised score needed around the country for a grammar place. Over in Devon for example they're looking at about 186 (on 2 x standardised scores) as a cutoff - and 2/3 of applicants will get a place.

play · Post by **play** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:46 pm

Your argument is like saying People in Coventy took the Edexel "A" level and got a B. People in Stratford got a on "A". You cannot say the people who sat the Stratford exam are cleverer. Of course they are.

The intake of Southern Warwickshire are clearly clever than the Eastern area. If the pass mark was set at 335. KES would be full.
LSS would not manage to fill 84 places. It is simple as that.

ginx · Post by **ginx** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:53 pm

Thanks, Okanagan, for sticking up for Eastern Warwickshire. I feel I'm the only dp from Eastern Warwickshire.

I am beginning to find some comments rather offensive - I know you mean no offence and it's not personal - but I know lots of dc here in the East who got high scores.

I still find it a little offensive. Play, remember though - I am a paranoid person!