11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

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southbucks3
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Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:59 am

Re: 11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

Post by southbucks3 »

Child 1 - an only child, unsporty, no afterschool activities, goes to grandparents every day, reads a whole book per day, but dull and poor communicator. Poor at Maths but tutored to be average.
Let's restructure the character analysis of the two children:

Quiet shy child, gets on with life without making a fuss, close bonds with grand parents and enjoys chatting with them every day. Loves literature and is able to make up for shyness by communicating with written work, worked hard to build confidence in maths which is their weaker subject, so has become a good all rounder, needs help and patience to bring them out of their shell. Hopefully will be encouraged to join in with sport once at big school, may surprise themselves in this respect.

Confident child, very busy with sports and activities, communicates well with peers and adults but often exhausted at home so spends much of the time tapping about at his iPad but not chatting to his siblings or parents often not offering more than a grunt. Naturally bright at maths, so excellent in this area as it cones easily, reluctant to put extra effort into English as its a bit more time consuming and entails more effort on their part, they achieve a good level of written work at school but don't push themselves. Parents have given up arguing with them to get them reading aloud at bed time. Sharing conversation about current affairs or reading a newspaper over dinner has become impossible as everyone enters home at different times, child doing so with filthy knees and a ravaging hunger.

Yes, we have elements of both going on here, as do many families, but at the end of the day, sporty child will still have to come home after a match at gs, wash, eat and read two chapters of a fairly meaty book and then write an essay about what they have read and also do their maths, geography and music practice. All just ten months from now!

Must go now, we are reading 'the incorrigible children' together and I desperately want to know how it ends.....trots off "smugly" :roll: to curl up on sofa and read with her ten year old.
Last edited by southbucks3 on Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mad?
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Re: 11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

Post by mad? »

I would hope that a child described as 'dull' would have the chance to flourish in a GS environment, shining academically once the demand to be 'engaging' and'confident' and been recognised for what it is. I would hope that in that environment there were no adults describing children as 'dull' because they enjoyed reading/studying, or indeed for any other reason. And FWIW, not smug here and DD1 talented mathematician not so good at Literacy.
mad?
Yamin151
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Re: 11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

Post by Yamin151 »

I am also not smug, but do find the suggestion (from some, certainly not all) that reading, literacy and spelling are "woolly" and unimportant whereas the fact that little Johnny's was on schofield and sims book 7 in year 3 is touted as making little johnny an absolute MUST for grammar school exceedingly annoying.
I was careful to say my children would happily choose a screen over a book, but because they have not been given that chance they have learnt to maintain a love of books. Why is the suggestion that. The advantage this has given them is somehow negated by the fact that they are not brilliant mathematicians!!?
Also, this assertion that any child can be somehow coached 'just to pass the exam' is ridiculous. If the child is not meant to be there they will not be there! And how offensive to paint a pic of a child who loves and adores reading as somehow duller than the sporty child. Why can't maths clever children be dull? Why can't bookish children be sporty? Utterly ridiculous.
JamesDean
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Re: 11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

Post by JamesDean »

CEM don't randomly decide what they put in their exams; they are contracted by the LA to provide a test to select children with certain abilities. If the Warks test is now weighted more towards literacy, then it is because that is what the LA, and presumably the schools, have asked for.

DS has not reported any lack of Maths ability in the new year 7 at KES. I would be fairly certain that the majority still finished KS2 with level 6 / high levels 5s. I really can't see it being much different next year ...

JD
kenyancowgirl
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Re: 11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

Post by kenyancowgirl »

Definitely not smug here. But actually pretty cross about the assumptions you have made OP about people. Quite rude really.

Taking your example of the "dull" child. When I worked full time, when my kids were small, they went to their grandparents every evening. They didn't sit on screens (because they didn't have them) - there was a tv but, you know what they did? They read, they chatted, they played games for fun. Nothing to do with 11+... They were under 5. But it set them in good stead. As they got older, neither of them were avid readers but they like talking to us. And they are both good at maths. We didn't learn reams of words, didn't tutor, didn't excessively prepare. They got in because they were equally good at all areas. Not particularly because of anything that we did actively. And certainly not because we banged on about synonyms and antonyms for 11 years.... But being rounded meant that they didn't have to balance out a weaker area with a strong one.

And I suspect the child one point below the AQS will probably get an offer anyway.

Cross posted with JD...and I agree...the standard of maths is very unlikely to have dropped from two years ago...certainly all the people who have mentioned SATS levels have all reported their boys entering on L6 or 5A.
Janeymorris
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Re: 11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

Post by Janeymorris »

I wasn't meaning to be rude or offensive, indeed I personally could be offended by all the references to the assumptions that children who are not reading are being allowed on Xboxes and computers too much, I have 3 children who would all choose music, sport and playing with friends over and above anything to do with computers or reading. I was just raising a concern that there are a lot of disappointed bright children this year as there is a lot of children all bunched on the same mark, largely because the maths hasn't differentiated them and from the children I know, the readers are the winners. There is no evidence in Warwickshire that when the Maths was weighted higher that there were a glut of children leaving GS with poor GSCE in English.
KenR
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Re: 11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

Post by KenR »

Guest55 wrote:As a mathematician I worry about this! Being a great scientist does not necessarily mean a child can write fluently especially if there is SEN involved.

I can think of many superb mathematicians that might not get through if they had to be level 5 English .... we need good scientists and engineers.
Absolutely agree with this - Interesting to reflect that if Einstein had emigrated to the UK age 10 he would almost certainly have failed his 11+ exams (as a refugee with poor English skills)!
guest201
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Re: 11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

Post by guest201 »

Is it not true that there is a link between good maths skill and NVR? This is what I have been told, if this is the case the children who are good at maths will also be good at NVR and these two together are weighted at 50% with the other 50% VR. My daughter is in Y7 at GS she scored quite well last year top 30 and her VR score was just above 100 (not good) this was compensated for by very good maths and NVR. Maybe the children who are good at literacy are getting the top marks, but what does it matter if your child comes 1st or 81st, if the qualify? I don't think any children who are exceptional at maths are missing out, they are possibly not getting the high rankings they would have got with the previous weightings but at the end of the day is that really important?
Janeymorris
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Re: 11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

Post by Janeymorris »

Although NVR is supposed to link to Maths, most people on this forum will know its a technique rather than a natural ability, unless you have had some practice at the different styles before the test and someone has told you to work at speed (3 per minute) you are very unlikely to naturally get a high score (both my children so far have been useless at it to start with and got better and faster with practice). I agree that for many they will get the score anyway, but I am just suggesting that a fairer system would be verbal reasoning that ensured a good standard but with some more challenging questions allowing those with a talent in English to shine, and Maths that allows testing to a good standard, but with some difficult ones to allow those to with Maths talent to get rewarded. If everyone is on an even playing field for Maths and everyone is competing against each other rather than a set minimum pass mark, it is not fair to upgrade those with superior English, as it makes a big difference when there is a large group of children on a similar mark.
blinx7
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Re: 11 plus this year bad news for those good at maths

Post by blinx7 »

What seems obvious to me in all of this, is that there are simply nowhere near enough gs places for all the children who would thrive in that environment. How sad it is, that it comes down to which group of bright children must be discriminated against. Surely any child who is a high level 5/6 in primary school Maths OR English and a reasonable level in the other subject deserves a gs place. In other counties with more places I am sure that they would get them. My dd has just completed her 11+ and she should get a place from her score and ranking. Many other very able children that we know have not been so fortunate. When the results came through we were left feeling as though we had narrowly avoided a car crash. NVR score of only 76! The 2 other scores of 129 and 127 fortunately kept her in the game. She had always done well on NVR in practice papers and has no idea what went wrong in the test. My point is that so many very able children miss out because of a blip on the day( and it could so easily have been us) that I am left with a strong feeling that the system is terribly unfair and will always be so until such a time when gs can become something that politicians are willing to talk about expanding again, when HT recommendations can stand for something and when a child can be given a 2nd chance. Incidentally most of the children we know to have failed were stronger on English than maths.
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