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 Post subject: Scores
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:49 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:04 pm
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How does the scoring in the real 11+ correlate with the CGP mocks we have been doing? They are all out of a possible 175 marks, yet the pass marks for getting into GS are 209+? I know they are ‘standardised’ but from what I’ve read that’s about ensuring the children who are Summer born are not disadvantaged over Autumn children etc. and is apparently a few marks added on for the younger children. I know children who got 240+ so how did they get a mark so much higher than the maximum in the mocks? Just trying to benchmark my son? Are there any parents whose children did the practice tests and have got into grammar school that could share their child’s general % of correct marks in the mocks?


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 Post subject: Re: Scores
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:53 pm 
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I suggest you have a proper read of the many threads about standardised scores as it is not simply about “adding a few marks” for summer horns - in fact, if they generally do better than autumn born, the opposite situation may be true.

I have no idea what CGP mocks are - the test is CEM. The score is standardised for the cohort taking so it is not out of anything. Each year is different - there may be a different number of questions and depending on the cohort you may have to get nearly all of them right to get a place or only 50%.... it’s a little like grade boundaries for GCSEs in that respect!

Try not to get fixated on what score out of the total. Focus on working fast and accurately - you cannot second guess the rest of the cohorts ability, just get your child to do the very best they can.


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 Post subject: Re: Scores
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:35 pm 
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Thank you for replying.

I have copied this from Warwickshire CC literature, which is where I based my understanding of the process:

What is standardisation and how does it affect my child?” • The majority of the questions within both of the test booklets are worth 1 raw mark. Each correct answer is given 1 raw mark. No marks are deducted for incorrect answers. The raw marks are then totalled up for each section, then added together to create an overall raw score for each component (VR, Numeracy, NVR), and then these are added together to make the total raw score. • The overall score for each component (VR, Numeracy, NVR) is then standardised using an equation supplied by CEM, which takes into account the date of birth of the child and the date they sat the test. This equation cannot be supplied as it is copyrighted by CEM. • Standardisation is a very common practice when marking 11+ tests and entrance examinations across many local authorities. The effect of standardisation against a child’s specific age is very minimal though, and the main range of points between a child born in September compared to one born the following August, who have both scored the same raw score, is normally an average of between 4 and 7 total standardised total marks. However, this is dependent on the raw marks gained across each component. • Please note that no further information, including raw scores, analysis of answer sheets etc. can be given at this stage and we will only be able to accommodate such requests following the allocation of places on 1st March 2018, where appropriate, ie: once an appeal has been lodged and this information is relevant to your case. Copies of test booklets and/or answer sheets are not available to view as the content is exempt under Data Protection and Copyright Laws.

This is what I based my knowledge on standardization on, so I have read up on this area.

CGP is a company that makes revision materials, for the CEM test, as well as GCSEs and A Levels.

Your comment about the test ‘not being out of anything’ is false. It’s out of the number of questions answered - hence the raw score reference above.

I’m not hung up on the scores of other children, nor am I trying to second guess anything. I asked for a guide to pitch my child, which I have also been given from his tutor. I wanted to guage his chances based on the scores he has been getting in tests, compared to others who took similar tests last year and then subsequently either qualified for grammar school or not.

Your answer didn’t really help on this occasion.


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 Post subject: Re: Scores
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:19 am 
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Location: Essex
You will be given your child's standardised score (if the Durham Centre for Evaluation and Monitoring is the test provider, this is the only way in which your child's score will be presented. You won't be told their raw scores).

Standardised scores are not 'out of' anything; they tell you something about your child's positioning, vis a vis the rest of the cohort with whom s/he is being compared. The standardised score, apart from the 'age' element, is a function of the candidate's raw score in relation to the mean raw score and the standard deviation.

Between the score which is one standard deviation of the mean below the mean and that which lies one sd above lie c.68% of the scores. So if your child's score was one sd above the mean (conventionally a standardised score of 115 per paper, but it can vary), it is probable that they did better than about 84% of the other candidates (top end of 'middle'spread and also above the half of the rest whose scores fell below 1 sd below the mean), but knowing that tells you absolutely nothing about the actual raw score they ore anyone else got.

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 Post subject: Re: Scores
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:44 am 
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Thank you ToadMum.

GSHopeful...WCC do not say that Summer borns will get more than Autumn borns in the bit you copied above. They say there, in normal circumstances, might be a range between 4-7 standardised marks between Sept-August children, with other months falling somewhere between that range. All August test candidates are compared with August test candidates. All Sept ones are compared with Sept ones. All March ones are compared with March ones and so on. If Sept candidates do much better generally than the August bunch, the standardised score will iron out that perceived difference in favour of the August bunch. However, if you have a super bright August bunch, who do better than the Sept bunch, the standardisation will actually iron out that difference in favour of the Sept ones.

Whilst your raw score is "out of" the number of questions, the standardised score is not. As the raw score is basically irrelevant, I am right to say it is not "out of "anything. Whether your child gets a place at a Warwickshire Grammar School depends on a number of factors - their rank amongst the cohort is the most important thing - this is dictated by their standardised score. It also may depend on whether you are in the priority circle or not and, if you have a preference for single sex, you would likely have to rank/score higher than if you were happy with co-ed.


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 Post subject: Re: Scores
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:28 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:25 pm
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GSHopeful wrote:
Thank you for replying.

I have copied this from Warwickshire CC literature, which is where I based my understanding of the process:

What is standardisation and how does it affect my child?” • The majority of the questions within both of the test booklets are worth 1 raw mark. Each correct answer is given 1 raw mark. No marks are deducted for incorrect answers. The raw marks are then totalled up for each section, then added together to create an overall raw score for each component (VR, Numeracy, NVR), and then these are added together to make the total raw score. • The overall score for each component (VR, Numeracy, NVR) is then standardised using an equation supplied by CEM, which takes into account the date of birth of the child and the date they sat the test. This equation cannot be supplied as it is copyrighted by CEM. • Standardisation is a very common practice when marking 11+ tests and entrance examinations across many local authorities. The effect of standardisation against a child’s specific age is very minimal though, and the main range of points between a child born in September compared to one born the following August, who have both scored the same raw score, is normally an average of between 4 and 7 total standardised total marks. However, this is dependent on the raw marks gained across each component. • Please note that no further information, including raw scores, analysis of answer sheets etc. can be given at this stage and we will only be able to accommodate such requests following the allocation of places on 1st March 2018, where appropriate, ie: once an appeal has been lodged and this information is relevant to your case. Copies of test booklets and/or answer sheets are not available to view as the content is exempt under Data Protection and Copyright Laws.

This is what I based my knowledge on standardization on, so I have read up on this area.

CGP is a company that makes revision materials, for the CEM test, as well as GCSEs and A Levels.

Your comment about the test ‘not being out of anything’ is false. It’s out of the number of questions answered - hence the raw score reference above.

I’m not hung up on the scores of other children, nor am I trying to second guess anything. I asked for a guide to pitch my child, which I have also been given from his tutor. I wanted to guage his chances based on the scores he has been getting in tests, compared to others who took similar tests last year and then subsequently either qualified for grammar school or not.

Your answer didn’t really help on this occasion.


The answer to which you refer is an honest one, as far as you know they are out of any number you wish to choose... it all means nothing... lack of published information and the fact that CEM are known to make changes year on year mean that the original answer was perfectly correct, if not technically.. just get DC to achieve their best.. there mark is irrelevant.

And IMHO the last line was just not warranted!

As you see..


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 Post subject: Re: Scores
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:35 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:59 pm
Posts: 4838
I hadn't really fully read the response, in my haste to try and offer an answer - but have now... :evil:

GSHopeful, I was genuinely trying to help you understand. Your response was just rude. I have two boys at GS in Warwickshire - KES in Stratford, so I do have some experience of the test - at least twice, and around, 8 years awareness of the process.

To accuse me of falsehoods and not helping is unacceptable and deeply unpleasant - especially as a newbie to the process. You are asking a question but then telling me that you know more from your research...but you have misunderstood the research you have done....as has been pointed out to you by others.

Good luck getting useful information from your tutor - I will refrain from offering you any assistance in the future. :evil: :evil:


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 Post subject: Re: Scores
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:57 am 
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OP, there are two elements to standardisation - standardisation for age, which is what the paragraph you copied related to, and standardisation across the cohort, which is when a child's rank is established. You need to understand the second part. Although as you've already done your reading on this subject, presumably you don't need any more help.


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 Post subject: Re: Scores
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:13 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:35 pm
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If it’s any help my DS did 11plus last year and in 2 mock CGP tests he did a couple of weeks before the exam he scored 81% and 83%. In the exam he scored 243.


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 Post subject: Re: Scores
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:32 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:40 am
Posts: 112
GSHopeful wrote:
How does the scoring in the real 11+ correlate with the CGP mocks we have been doing? They are all out of a possible 175 marks, yet the pass marks for getting into GS are 209+? I know they are ‘standardised’ but from what I’ve read that’s about ensuring the children who are Summer born are not disadvantaged over Autumn children etc. and is apparently a few marks added on for the younger children. I know children who got 240+ so how did they get a mark so much higher than the maximum in the mocks? Just trying to benchmark my son? Are there any parents whose children did the practice tests and have got into grammar school that could share their child’s general % of correct marks in the mocks?



I will leave the technicalities to the experts. My DS had done 4 mock ups and he ranged from 65% to 80% gradually improving as we went about with our Journey. He will be attending KES from Sept. We did lots of mock ups simulated at home too and attacked weak areas without thinking too much about whether he will crack. He slowly started enjoying and on day of exam I was so glad to see how relaxed he was. Not sure if it helps. Best wishes for your child.


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