For Europeans concerned by Brexit

[Stimela]

But as I was commenting to a colleague today, cheap food is a good thing, a great thing actually. Think how lucky people were in the Victorian era, when they could have great cheap food, full of plaster and alun! Some reminders of human nature when there are no regulations:

edit: some more data, which shows that americans only get 10x more food poisonning, 6x more deaths...

Gosh what a scary lecture. Several questions arise though;

How did we manage to survive before the EU started looking after our welfare in 1974?

How long do you think we've got before the Great Plague returns (the EU's rats apparently have less contagious fleas than ours)?

What is with your obsession in going back to the Victorian Era? Is this some weird Brexity, Dr. Who adventure (hopefully Christopher Eccleston - he was my favourite?)

Do you think the EU will allow us to keep our Flushing Toilets or do you think this will be part of the transition?

How am I going to explain to the kids that we're swapping next years holiday of a lifetime to Disneyland California for a couple of weeks in Bognor Regis because of the relative merits of their chicken and chips?

If the Americans really want to get rid of Trump then why haven't they thought of feeding him some of his own food? Come to think of it, how come he's still alive? Do you think it's because he does his shopping on-line at Waitrose?

[doodles]

Shouting at some blithering Brexit idiot on the radio is not the best way to start half term

[Surferfish]

I can see how all this talk about self-determination, sovereignty and taking back control might appeal ideologically to some people, but what benefits will it actually bring to real ordinary British people in their real lives? Will it provide them with more secure better paid jobs, a better health service, better schools, better transport systems, a wider range of food and other goods in the shops at cheaper prices? If so how?

Or to ask another question can you give any examples from the last 30 years, where the UK government wanted to take some action which would have benefited the lives of the majority of its citizens, but were prevented from doing so because we were a member of the EU?

Stimela, any chance you could provide an answer to these questions? They weren't just rhetorical. I'm genuinely interested in how someone who voted leave thinks life will be better for the average Brit after Brexit and in what ways you believe the EU constrained us in the past?

[doodles]

I have to agree with Surefish on this one Stimela. Although your posts are amusing they don't actually answer any questions about how you think life will be better outside of Europe.

[mike1880]

I'm sure satisfactory answers to all those questions were on the side of the bus two years ago.

[Loopyloulou]

Or to ask another question can you give any examples from the last 30 years, where the UK government wanted to take some action which would have benefited the lives of the majority of its citizens, but were prevented from doing so because we were a member of the EU?

Abolition of the Tampon Tax.

[Stimela]

I can see how all this talk about self-determination, sovereignty and taking back control might appeal ideologically to some people, but what benefits will it actually bring to real ordinary British people in their real lives? Will it provide them with more secure better paid jobs, a better health service, better schools, better transport systems, a wider range of food and other goods in the shops at cheaper prices? If so how?

Or to ask another question can you give any examples from the last 30 years, where the UK government wanted to take some action which would have benefited the lives of the majority of its citizens, but were prevented from doing so because we were a member of the EU?

Stimela, any chance you could provide an answer to these questions? They weren't just rhetorical. I'm genuinely interested in how someone who voted leave thinks life will be better for the average Brit after Brexit and in what ways you believe the EU constrained us in the past?

Isn’t it strange that I posted a non-rhetorical question on page 17 of this forum about why those of the remain persuasion are so desperate to stay in the EU and I don’t think you replied to that? Anyway if I thought that it would change the mind of you or anyone else on the Forum then I could write a dissertation but I suspect you're not really open to persuasion. Most of us have taken an entrenched position, either ‘Protestant’ or ‘Catholic’, and those who haven't probably won’t read or post on this forum.

Interesting how you think taking back control is not of interest to real ordinary British people. I thought this was the leading reason people voted to Leave, ahead of Immigration. Do you not think the 45% of Scots who voted for independence were real ordinary British people? And how much control are you happy with the EU having? Depending on how you measure it, they now make 60-80% of our Laws and Regulations and its increasing? Even if you think they’re perfect lawmakers, how long before you say enough is enough. 90%? 99%. They have already turned down the Italian budget and bullied Greece in to submission. But where are they when you really need them to take a strong moral stance. Did you hear anyone senior at the EU condemn the alleged Khashoggi murder? No? Me neither. It was left to Britain, France and Germany to make a tepid response. In fact the strongest condemnation I’ve heard came from the ‘evil’ Nigel Farge who said it was a barbaric act and that we should suspend trade with them immediately.

I think the EU’s first question in any important matter is ; Is there any money in it? If not then they’re not interested. Talking of which do you know where our annual £11bn net Contributions go to, because I don’t and what’s more neither do the EU? They failed their audit for about 17 years in a row. One thing they do know however is that they need more of it with vast increases in members contributions demanded every budget round. Ever seen a poor EU Commissioner?

It is argued in some quarters that nothing has done more to prolong starvation in the African continent than the EU’s Common Agricultural Policy with its maintenance of high food prices by creating artificial shortages or destroying surpluses. I do hope you regard the Africans as real ordinary people. Not British though I grant you.

You asked about jobs and wages. Well Project Fear would have us believe that there will be severe shortage of Doctors, Nurses, Agricultural Workers etc. That means that those who stay in place will have fantastic job security and should be able to name their price for services provided.

Oh and you asked for a recent example where the government wanted to take some action but couldn’t; There was and is a strong strategic case for supporting our steel industry from a temporary influx of surplus cheap Chinese imports. The government were prevented from intervening by EU rules on state intervention. Thus 3,000 people in Redcar (makers of the ‘finest steel in the world’) lost their jobs. One of the leading proponents for state aid was one Mr. J.Corbyn. Good luck with wholesale nationalisation Jezza! Anyway this followed the decimation of shipbuilding and coal industry in the same area. I do hear however that the EU gave a grant to help restore the sea frontage which I’m sure is a great comfort to the steelworkers in their retirement and why they gave such a ringing endorsement to them in the referendum.

I work in manufacturing machinery by the way and we are seeing fantastic opportunities for export growth especially with the pound being so low.

Have I changed your mind yet? No. I didn’t think so. Still, not to worry, given recent reports we will all be dead from Global warming before we finally transition out of the EU.

[Surferfish]

Thanks for your detailed reply Stimela. No need to be quite so defensive though. So long as you explain your point of view properly (which you have done in this post) I'm sure the majority of people on here will try to understand it.

Regarding your question as to why I am so 'desperate' to stay in the EU, my answer is quite simple. I'm certainly under no illusion that the EU is a perfect organization, but however flawed in certain ways it may be, I still think its better to remain a part of it and try to help change the things which don't work, rather than take the reckless action of leaving.

I wasn't actually aware that the EU's agricultural policy affected Africa in such a negative way. But assuming that's correct, I agree that it doesn't sound good. But how will the UK leaving help that at all? While we were part of the EU we had the opportunity to influence EU policy. Once we leave we will not.

You mention climate change in your last sentence and that's another example. Surely global issues like this are best tackled by like-minded countries staying united together rather than all going their own separate ways with their own individual laws and policies?

[JaneEyre]

( Just a bit of humour in this depressing world)

LEAVER: I want an omelette.

REMAINER: Right. It’s just we haven’t got any eggs.

LEAVER: Yes, we have. There they are. [HE POINTS AT A CAKE]

REMAINER: They’re in the cake.

LEAVER: Yes, get them out of the cake, please.

REMAINER: But we voted in 1974 to put them into a cake.

LEAVER: Yes, but that cake has got icing on it. Nobody said there was going to be icing on it.

REMAINER: Icing is good.

LEAVER: And there are raisins in it. I don’t like raisins. Nobody mentioned raisins. I demand another vote.

DAVID CAMERON ENTERS.

DAVID CAMERON: OK.

DAVID CAMERON SCARPERS.

LEAVER: Right, where’s my omelette?

REMAINER: I told you, the eggs are in the cake.

LEAVER: Well, get them out.

EU: It’s our cake.

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes, get them out now.

REMAINER: I have absolutely no idea how to get them out. Don’t you know how to get them out?

LEAVER: Yes! You just get them out and then you make an omelette.

REMAINER: But how?! Didn’t you give this any thought?

LEAVER: Saboteur! You’re talking eggs down. We could make omelettes before the eggs went into the cake, so there’s no reason why we can’t make them now.

THERESA MAY: It’s OK, I can do it.

REMAINER: How?

THERESA MAY: There was a vote to remove the eggs from the cake, and so the eggs will be removed from the cake.

REMAINER: Yeah, but…

LEAVER: Hang on, if we take the eggs out of the cake, does that mean we don’t have any cake? I didn’t say I didn’t want the cake, just the bits I don’t like.

EU: It’s our cake.

REMAINER: But you can’t take the eggs out of the cake and then still have a cake.

LEAVER: You can. I saw the latest Bake Off and you can definitely make cakes without eggs in them. It’s just that they’re horrible.

REMAINER: Fine. Take the eggs out. See what happens.

LEAVER: It’s not my responsibility to take the eggs out. Get on with it.

REMAINER: Why should I have to come up with some long-winded incredibly difficult chemical process to extract eggs that have bonded at the molecular level to the cake, while somehow still having the cake?

LEAVER: You lost, get over it.

THERESA MAY: By the way, I’ve started the clock on this.

REMAINER: So I assume you have a plan?

THERESA MAY: Actually, back in a bit. Just having another election.

REMAINER: Jeremy, are you going to sort this out?

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes. No. Maybe.

EU: It’s our cake.

LEAVER: Where’s my omelette? I voted for an omelette.

REMAINER: This is ridiculous. This is never going to work. We should have another vote, or at least stop what we’re doing until we know how to get the eggs out of the cake while keeping the bits of the cake that we all like.

LEAVER/MAY/CORBYN: WE HAD A VOTE. STOP SABOTAGING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. EGGSIT MEANS EGGSIT.

REMAINER: Fine, I’m moving to France. The cakes are nicer there.

LEAVER: You can’t. We’ve taken your freedom of movement.

[Surferfish]

Like it JaneEyre

Here's another similar one.