For Europeans concerned by Brexit

[JaneEyre]

It is an indictment [...] on our society which encourages individualism and celebrity worship over compassionate community and intelligent engagement with big issues.

+1

[Stimela]

Who are these charlatans and self-seeking moral bankrupts to gamble it away without us being aware of it? Isn't that meant to be the difference between a representative democracy and a dictatorship?

Yep that is what most of our Governments have done for the past 40 years since we joined the EU. Given away elected power so gradually we hardly even notice it, so now we are under the effective dictatorship of the EU.

And while we are on the subject of your recent thread. You have taken me to task once or twice for offending you. I'm afraid it is my turn to take offence when you keep implying that while you are the most anti-racist person you know, most of the people who supported leaving the EU are racist. Certainly all the people I know who supported leave did not vote because they were racist. We are I think the most tolerant society in the world and to say that only Remainers are fit to wear a Halo while the Leavers are all 'big bad wolves' is not I hope the sort of serious political debate you were hoping to have with the younger generation. That is more like brainwashing than debate.

[Amber]

Perhaps you could point me at the parts of my posts which imply that I believe you to be racist, Stimela, and I will gladly apologise for causing you such deep offence. I tend to think that when debate sinks to becoming mud slinging it is an admission that one side has run out of arguments. I have put forward many points in my recent posts and all I see here is an accusation that I am wearing a halo while accusing others of racism, rather than any attempt to answer them. I think perhaps you misunderstood my answer to Quasimodo- if not then I am a little puzzled as I have never played that particular card.

[RedPanda]

And while we are on the subject of your recent thread. You have taken me to task once or twice for offending you. I'm afraid it is my turn to take offence when you keep implying that while you are the most anti-racist person you know, most of the people who supported leaving the EU are racist. Certainly all the people I know who supported leave did not vote because they were racist. We are I think the most tolerant society in the world and to say that only Remainers are fit to wear a Halo while the Leavers are all 'big bad wolves' is not I hope the sort of serious political debate you were hoping to have with the younger generation. That is more like brainwashing than debate.

For what it worth Stimela, I didn't read any of that in Amber's posts but I do think it is fair to say that a proportion of leave votes were fueled by racism, in the same way that a proportion of the remain votes were fuled by 18 to 30's worried that their Ibiza weekends and roaming charges.

Intelligent analysis and debate for those looking to secede (and those who wished to remain in) the EU, I think, centred around sovereignty (Vote Leave) as opposed to the Leave EU narative (Farage et al) which seemed to me, to focus, too much, on immigration and gave a home to those who are intolerant.

So here we are. The Brexiteers won the day. Unfortunately for them and (frankly) the Remainers, we have negotiated a withdrawal deal that puts the EU in the driving seat for the future trade negotiations. My personal preference would be for another referendum. I don't see Labour saving the day and the nationalist parties (DUP, SNP, etc.) are consumed by their own agendas. If the referendum isn't forthcomming, then we need to revisit the withdrawal agreement and negotiate with the same level of competence as the EU.

[Surferfish]

If we had a second referendum what options do you think should be on it?

[BucksBornNBred]

... we have negotiated a withdrawal deal that puts the EU in the driving seat for the future trade negotiations. My personal preference would be for another referendum.

If we have a second referendum then the EU will definitely being in the driving seat; we can't get our vetoes back, we would have to accept the Euro, and even if we 'are at the table' no-one will listen to us. There is no turning back the clock on this one.

[Surferfish]

... we have negotiated a withdrawal deal that puts the EU in the driving seat for the future trade negotiations. My personal preference would be for another referendum.

If we have a second referendum then the EU will definitely being in the driving seat; we can't get our vetoes back, we would have to accept the Euro, and even if we 'are at the table' no-one will listen to us. There is no turning back the clock on this one.

Are you sure about this? The EU never wanted us to leave in the first place. Wouldn't it be in their best interest if they just let us carry on as we were with our own currency etc as if the whole silly thing had never happened?

[RedPanda]

... we have negotiated a withdrawal deal that puts the EU in the driving seat for the future trade negotiations. My personal preference would be for another referendum.

If we have a second referendum then the EU will definitely being in the driving seat; we can't get our vetoes back, we would have to accept the Euro, and even if we 'are at the table' no-one will listen to us. There is no turning back the clock on this one.

It is a mess isn't it? Rather like the question, "Which hand would you like amputating?"

I wonder if we can poach Barnier.

[RedPanda]

If we had a second referendum what options do you think should be on it?

Remain on the same terms or leave under whatever deal is negotiated. If the same terms are not on offer, we leave.

Messy, I know.

[Amber]

If we had a second referendum what options do you think should be on it?

Let us keep our European passports and freedom of movement so we can emigrate as quickly as possible after March.

That would do for me.The only 'gain' from this deal appears to be the loss of free movement. How can that be something worth celebrating?!


And why isn't the mainstream media commenting on the astonishing volte face on the matter of Indian immigrants? In 2016 May was all about 'sending back' Indians, because there were 'too many here' already. And now, what if we don't need even more of them? Those pesky Europeans have been 'jumping the queue' ahead of all the lovely Indian software developers who are what we really want. The language in this is really dreadful, not to mention the utter hypocrisy. Where is the challenge from the media?! Come on guys: this is not acceptable! My lovely European colleagues are starting to hide away, wondering if people they meet really buy into this narrative. It is shocking and we should be challenging it.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 02511.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It will no longer be the case that EU nationals, regardless of the skills or experience they have to offer, can jump the queue ahead of engineers from Sydney or software developers from Delhi.

(Speech to CBI, yesterday)

ETA I don't think it will be so much engineers and software developers we are short of once we send all the Europeans away; rather hotel staff, catering staff and those in the service industries generally. Unless all our 'native' young people are suddenly all going to abandon plans to go off to university and decide to become cleaners and fruit pickers instead.