Discussion re SATS / Teachers / employers etc (from warks)

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BoltBlue
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:19 pm

Re: Are Warks grammar schools told Year 6 SAT's results?

Post by BoltBlue »

I think that many parents welcome SATS. In fact the school my children attend welcome SATS. Children even undertake the optional SATS tests ever year the results are used for streaming the children for the next year. I bet the secondary schools are provided with SATS results. I do not accept all schools oppose SATS. I suggest it is the schools which perform badly do not like SATS and the teachers who oppose exams and whose poor teaching is exposed, objects to SATS.

Many children actually like SATS as it gives them a sense of direction and achievement. I view SATS as an earlier form of GSCE English and Maths.

I think children should be examined every single year. If they do not pass they should stay in their current year and not progress to the next level. This happens in many countries! We could have an 11 year old in year 1. If that is his level, then that is where he should be an not a drain on other children. Currently teachers spend more time on weaker students and ignore the more able. Keeping the weaker children in a lower year would help this. Also some children who are born in July/Aug struggle in their earlier years and may progress quicker in a lower year :)
Last edited by BoltBlue on Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.
stevew61
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Location: caversham

Re: Are Warks grammar schools told Year 6 SAT's results?

Post by stevew61 »

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magwich2
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Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:33 pm

Re: Are Warks grammar schools told Year 6 SAT's results?

Post by magwich2 »

Keep it up BoltBlue - it is always good to have a debate!
BoltBlue
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:19 pm

Re: Are Warks grammar schools told Year 6 SAT's results?

Post by BoltBlue »

magwich2 wrote:Keep it up BoltBlue - it is always good to have a debate!
I don't think this forum encourages debate.
Ooops, I am off the original topic.
It seems I have to apologise :lol:

Sorry! :P
KS10
Posts: 2516
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:39 am

Re: Are Warks grammar schools told Year 6 SAT's results?

Post by KS10 »

A classic thread! :lol: :lol: :lol:
legaraal

Re: Are Warks grammar schools told Year 6 SAT's results?

Post by legaraal »

I don't mind that everyone has wandered off my original posting, as Magwich has answered the precise question I originally asked. Thanks.

Boltblue, I do find your logic dubious. You say that teachers ought to be sacked if they follow their beliefs and decline to cooperate with the administration of the SATs tests, your reasoning being that the government is their boss and they therefore ought to do what the government says. ( qv Milgram experiments. ) How do you reconcile this with you having taught your child a "non standard" way of doing maths and then telling the teacher that he / she must let your child do maths "your way". I'd assume that primary schools are "told" to teach maths by prescribed methods. By your logic, a teacher ought therefore to do "whatever it takes" to ensure that children do their maths by those prescribed methods - because "that is what the government tells them to do". Would you support a teacher who gave your child detention, or some other punitive measure, day in day out, until you / your child "succumbed" and did his maths "their way"? I think not. If you accept the logic that sometimes schools "get it wrong" about the techniques they teach for doing maths, then it is not such a great leap from there to start considering that schools maybe "get it wrong" by administering SATs.

We never had SATs, or anything like them, when I was at junior school in the 1970's. There seems to be quite a bit of consensus that educational outcomes nowadays, are "worse" than they were a few decades ago. What does that say? I appreciate that the answer to this is multifactorial. I don't believe that there is any good evidence that national testing of children at junior school level improves either the individual child's educational outcome, or improves the school.
BoltBlue
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:19 pm

Are Warks grammar schools told Year 6 SAT's results?

Post by BoltBlue »

"How do you reconcile this with you having taught your child a "non standard" way of doing maths and then telling the teacher that he / she must let your child do maths "your way". I'd assume that primary schools are "told" to teach maths by prescribed methods."

I am not sure if I am allowed to answer.... my account was deactivated and then reactivated!

Answer: My child is not an employee. The teacher is an employee, draws a salary as part of contract and is to do what his/her employer instructs. If that means administering SATS, then (s)he must do that, else it is a breach of contract. A professional does as they are told (as long as it is not illegal). If they don't want to do what they are paid for, sack them or resign.
A cashier cannot refuse to scan sweets because they think they are bad and should not be sold. An employee must do as they are told of find another job.

SATS does not state whether a child should carry at the top or bottom, merely the child should understand the column method for addition. IMHO, the teacher was an "idiot" and other teachers in the same school accept a child doing the sum any way.

My logic is simple: an employer-employee relationship is master-slave. The slave does as told and in this case is free to leave (as BA cabin crew should do instead of striking).

"We never had SATs, or anything like them, when I was at junior school in the 1970's. There seems to be quite a bit of consensus that educational outcomes nowadays, are "worse" than they were a few decades ago. What does that say?"

In the 1970's there was one teacher per 30 children. No teaching assistants and no lazy teacher training days. They were better educated and did not say "haitch". The answer is clear: many (not all) teachers of today are poorly educated, lazy and will not do what they are told (yet expect children to do what they are told). Left-wing subversion is no excuse for not following instructions from their employers. They show the children that being a rebel and refusing to do as told is acceptable. No wonder discipline is poor.

Many children did not go to University in the 1970s. There was a "standard". The government did not allow David Beckham and "media" studies. Universities were for the clever and Polytechnics for the people, who were not good enough to go to University or for vocational courses. Many would prefer to repeat "A" levels than go to a polytechnic. There wasn't an aim for 50% to go to University. Apprentices were available for the less academically able. The, uneducated, John Major let any polytechnic become a university and soon "O" levels were dumbbed down to CSEs with a "G" in-front = GCSE and became CSE standard. Coursework was added so girls would out perform boys in a novel method of social engineering and the "house husband" was created.

"I don't believe that there is any good evidence that national testing of children at junior school level improves either the individual child's educational outcome, or improves the school."

How do you compare children to set standard, compare schools and teachers without SATS?
Have you heard of CVA and progress measures? Have you heard of competition and the wish to be the best?
Doesn't this increase standards? A genuine self determination to succeed. Goal orientation are good attributes.
Do GCSEs increase standards? Do "A" levels increase standards? Are SATS really to determine what a child has learnt and can answer under pressure in a real life exam situation? Isn't that the basis of the UK education system. Exam pressure! Let the children learn, let them learn to fail, let them be determined to improve. Children lose and every day. They to will lose a sporting event. They fail to get to the next levels on console games. Learn to fail in order to learn to pass.

I do not accept SATS is for school. It may well have started that way, but SATS is used to inform parents the level of their child and is used to stream them. It is the only "fair" indicator to compare children in other schools. It is as "fair" as GCSEs and "A" levels. If the government decided to use them, the teachers must comply. We cannot have sectors refusing to do what the government has said and decided upon. Everyone will never agree. Teachers cannot dictate what they will do, unless they want children to dicate what they will do.

Using your logic, in your world, should all exams be scrapped?

I think I will be banned from this forum very soon. I am off topic and my frank views will offend people who hate to debate and take generalisations personally. Some will be offended as the truth hurts! :)
mike1880
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:51 pm

Re: Are Warks grammar schools told Year 6 SAT's results?

Post by mike1880 »

BoltBlue wrote:My logic is simple: an employer-employee relationship is master-slave.
The kindest thing that can be said about that is that it demonstrates a profound ignorance of the principles underlying employment legislation in this country from the mid-19th century (at least).

Mike
hermanmunster
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Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:51 am
Location: The Seaside

Re: Are Warks grammar schools told Year 6 SAT's results?

Post by hermanmunster »

agreed mike, last time I looked my Employer (the NHS) could not function without professionally qualified employees (doctors, nurses, physios, radiographers etc etc ) - they may try and import such but there is a limit.
We could all resign tomorrow and work as freelance / self employed but choose not to (the dentists did opt to do so :roll: ).
stevew61
Posts: 1786
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:54 pm
Location: caversham

Re: Are Warks grammar schools told Year 6 SAT's results?

Post by stevew61 »

Booklady wrote:
boltblue wrote:Correct. Revise and revise just as students doing GCSEs, "A" levels and degrees. What is the issue?

RAM SATS down their little throats and increase the school rating. Isn't this what happens at grammar schools, many which start GCSEs one year early and some do over 15 GCSEs to boost school ratings (LSS)!
Have a look at the results,

http://lawrencesheriffschool.net/index. ... Itemid=115" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They take AS early in year 11 as it counts as a double GCSE for the cursed league tables, seems to be detrimental on A2 results.
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