Ethics of forced vaccinations

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sherry_d
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Location: Maidstone

Re: Ethics of forced vaccinations

Post by sherry_d »

Where does the social responsibility stop?

I see obesity as a much bigger problem than vaccinations so perhaps courts should force the parents to put their children on a "diet". I strongly object to the government and their court system telling me how to live. If I don't vaccinate they should leave me and bugger off and chase the bigger issues affecting society today.

Less government for me always, I am totally opposed to this decision. After all we aren't talking babies here, teenagers. This is just a ridiculous judgement in my opinion. (I hide back in my closet)
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Snowdrops
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Re: Ethics of forced vaccinations

Post by Snowdrops »

:shock: A word I've not heard for donkey's years and had forgotten about.

Flob.

I feel sick just thinking about it :cry:
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Kit
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:58 am

Re: Ethics of forced vaccinations

Post by Kit »

I was just about to go to the gym but Amber's put me off now! Maybe walking the dog will be safer!

I can see that the pros/ cons of vaccination can polarise opinions but it was the consent side of it I was more concerned about.

These children aren't ill (unlike the boy last year whose Mum went on the run with him to avoid radiotherapy for a brain tumour- it was totally justifiable to force him to have potentially life-saving treatment, he was also younger) but it seems htat their wishes were deemed to be insignificant enough to force a medical procedure on them.

A bit too much like Big Brother....
pheasantchick
Posts: 2439
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:28 pm

Re: Ethics of forced vaccinations

Post by pheasantchick »

A neighbour of mine has recently, as an adult, caught mumps. He didn't have the mm vaccine (to early for mmr). He got encephalitis and has spent time in a wheelchair.
Tinkers
Posts: 7240
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 2:05 pm
Location: Reading

Re: Ethics of forced vaccinations

Post by Tinkers »

I was very ill with measles, should have been hospitalised.
My step father is deaf following measles.
I think some people forget measles can cause serious illness and even death.

Of course, in general courts do not make decisions about vaccinations, parents do. As it should be.

If both parents wanted the girls vaccinated, they would have been. If neither parent wanted the girls vaccinated, they wouldn't have been.
If the parents had still been together but disagreed, then likely there would have been arguments/discussions at home over the kitchen table. They may or may not have taken their DDs views into account, but ultimately a decision would have been made and no courts involved.

Unfortunately in this case, the parents are separated and disagreed. Not sure how else it could have been resolved.
Amber
Posts: 8058
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:59 am

Re: Ethics of forced vaccinations

Post by Amber »

Kit wrote:I was just about to go to the gym but Amber's put me off now! Maybe walking the dog will be safer!
Sorry :oops:
Kit wrote:These children aren't ill (unlike the boy last year whose Mum went on the run with him to avoid radiotherapy for a brain tumour- it was totally justifiable to force him to have potentially life-saving treatment, he was also younger)
Even that wasn't maybe as straightforward as it might have appeared, in that radiotherapy a) was not necessarily being carried out with curative intent and b) was likely fundamentally to alter the child's personality, ability to learn and retain information and his general physical and mental development. Many parents of children who had had this treatment and had survived came out to say well actually this isn't necessarily the panacea. The trouble with the media in these cases is that it reduces everything to the lowest common denominator so that it makes a good story and also so people can access and understand it easily. The subtleties are often lost - in this case that brain tumour research is hopelessly underfunded and many treatments are acknowledged to be outdated and pitifully inadequate.

I agree with you Kit that the issues were around consent, and I would be concerned if a 15 year old of normal intelligence was not deemed competent to make her own decisions around this. I feel happy that my 12 year old was able to make the decision about this vaccine himself, and no one here tried to influence him other than to encourage him to talk about it if he was unsure.

In response to your point Tinkers, why could not the girls themselves have decided, without the courts getting involved? Maybe because what they wanted to decide displeased one of their parents? I don't know, but am struggling to understand how it came to this with children of this age.
Tinkers
Posts: 7240
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 2:05 pm
Location: Reading

Re: Ethics of forced vaccinations

Post by Tinkers »

Obviously we don't know the family or the girls themselves.

From reading the reports, the courts and/or the father (not sure without going back to look) felt that the girls had been overly influenced by the mother's aversion to the vaccination. I agree that most 15 year olds can and should have a say in their medical wellbeing though. Not sure I would let my 11 year old have the final say though, but she would have some input into the discussion, because I think she can understand.

As I already said, if it had been the other way around and the mother wanted them done and the father didn't, it would have probably happened behind his back. I don't think that is right either.
talea51
Posts: 522
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:10 pm

Re: Ethics of forced vaccinations

Post by talea51 »

Amber, it came to this because of the age of the children. Neither of them are of the age of majority, therefore neither of them are considered to be adults. I believe that children of this age still require parental consent for medical procedures because they are not considered legally responsible for their own medical decisions.

I imagine that the court was not sufficiently convinced that the girls had made up their own minds rather than being influenced by the views of one parent and, taking into account the fact that these girls are not of an age that is usually considered old enough to legally be responsible for their own medical decisions, the court decided for them.

As someone else said, it only came to court because the parents are separated.
Amber
Posts: 8058
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:59 am

Re: Ethics of forced vaccinations

Post by Amber »

Amber, it came to this because of the age of the children. Neither of them are of the age of majority, therefore neither of them are considered to be adults. I believe that children of this age still require parental consent for medical procedures because they are not considered legally responsible for their own medical decisions.
From the Department of Health guidelines on consent. It is not the case that U16s cannot consent for themselves and indeed they quote the example of a vaccine as a case in which a child should be able to give consent alone. I taught a child of 14 whose family had been torn apart by his refusal to consent to surgery on his spine. It is pretty clear here that it is the child who has the final say if that child is deemed competent. Remember Child B? She was 10.
Under 16s
The rules say that children under 16 may still be able to give consent for themselves, provided they are mature enough to understand fully what is involved.
So who gives consent – your child or you?
There is no hard and fast rule. A lot depends on the seriousness or difficulty of the proposed treatment. Although your child might be grown-up enough to consent to a meningitis vaccination, for instance, it might be too much to expect him or her to grasp all they need to know for consenting to a heart operation.
Even if your child is grown-up enough to give consent independently, people providing treatment will still encourage them to involve you in their decision. However, if children refuse to share information with parents, health care professionals must normally respect their wishes.
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