Nelson Mandela

[Sally-Anne]

There may be many lessons to be learned from Nelson Mandela's role in breaking down Apartheid, but please be cautious about straying into highly controversial religious issues on this thread. The potential to cause offence to other Forum users is considerable.

Forum Rule 2:

2. Posts that may incite religious or racial hatred or contain potentially libellous comments will be removed without warning.

[Rob Clark]

The fuss over Nelson Mandela has reminded me that history is written by the victors.

Nelson Mandela spent 27 years of his life as a political prisoner – it's a strange concept of victory!

Surely the greatness of the man is that he never seemed resentful or bitter about his imprisonment but rather spoke of forgiveness and of the future. I'm fairly sure I wouldn't have been so magnanimous in those circumstances.

And yes kenyancowgirl quite agree, Invictus, both book and film, are brilliant.

[talea51]

He seems to have been reinvented in the same way as Gerry Adams - from terrorist to politician. Maybe he did do some good work in the later part of his life but I have a reasonably long memory and he was not always so willing to work within the law.

When the law is unjust and cruel, and by God it was in South Africa especially during the hey day of Apartheid, it is impossible to work within the law.

However, UmKhonto we sizwe (the armed wing of the ANC) were by Mandela's own defintion terrorists ( and he was responsible for the creation of MK). They waged their war against women and children. Their argument, that no white person was innocent - even though there were many many who did not accept the apartheid government, even though there were many who were vehemently opposed to racism (and still are). Not only did MK (Umkhonto we Siswe) bomb nightclubs, shopping malls etc but they put guns in the hands of children, they forced children to join their struggle for freedom. I find that unconscionable. Their argument is that everyone, no matter what age, needed to belong to the struggle. They deliberately and with forethought put children in the front line of riots. For two reasons, one in the hope that the SA police would be reluctant to use violence against children and two, because they knew it would cause outrage in the rest of the world when the SA police did shoot children.

Make no mistake, SA's history is full of atrocities, on both sides of the fence.

They have left a horrible legacy of children (who are now my age) who are unable to do anything because they didn't have even the most basic of education. Yes, education for black people in South Africa was appalling when I was a child, but it was better than nothing. MK soldiers had nothing, they were forced to boycott school and were taught to kill instead. They were sent to training camps in Angola and other surrounding countries, some of them were only 10 years old.

I admired and loved Mandela. In 1988 when I was at University, I thought we'd never see the end of Apartheid. Many of my friends were arrested and tortured by the security services. I was arrested for protesting against the apartheid government. We were living in a state of emergency and it was awful and terrifying and I thought it would never end. In 1990, Mandela walked free and the entire country celebrated. He was an incredible man, a flawed man but a great man and Africa could definitely use more leaders like him.

He did great things and the fact that he could not be filled with bitterness and anger was exactly what South Africa needed. SA does not need leaders who fuel anger and hatred, SA needs leaders who can look to the future and who can leave the past behind.

It was nearly 20 years ago, people who have left school now don't even know what it was like to be brought up during apartheid. It's time to learn from the past and work on a future that doesn't repeat the mistakes of previous generations. Unfortunately, Africa has so few of these leaders. Jacob Zuma definitely isn't one of them.

So when I learned of Madiba's death, I mourned. I cried for our Tata, the world is a poorer place now that he is gone.

[southbucks3]

Throughout history atrocious and indiscriminate acts of violence in the name of politics occur again and again. When I was growing up parading around in my anti apartheid t shirts, one such act was the church street bombing, which mandela admitted in his biography to "signing off" from his prison. I am fully aware that it was an act of retaliation, but it was "disproportionate to political motive". I believe the man that left prison in 1990 was a strong, great leader, who was intent on pushing the country forward in a positive light. Personally I would have believed him a fantastic leader, if he had only publically apologised to the innocent victims of the anc and done more to move the radical members of the anc away from violence, even though he subsequently called for peace from the nation. Apartheid was horrendous in all respects, but why does change have to come down the barrel of a gun?
10 years later and we forgot about the church street bomb, and had the omargh bomb instead, since then obviously things have taken an even worse turn, but these acts imo can never be justified.
I personally look to Ghandi and luther for inspiration.

[UmSusu]

Thank you talea, that was a very touching post : I really can't imagine the struggles that people lived through during Apartheid. The idea of using children as part of resistance is very difficult. They should be using their youth to educate themselves and build their future. Life needs to be hopelessly bleak to sacrifice the most basic things to take part in such a struggle. I recently saw a programme about children in another part of the world who felt compelled to do this against their state (not under duress though) and remember feeling a mixture of incredulity and admiration - I never really thought about how this 'choice' will affect them in later life.


Not all of Mandela's earlier actions are beyond reproach and some people have even feel he 'sold out' through his emphasis on moving forward. I can't say that I am able to judge for my myself. I have never been one for making tributes to people I only know via newspapers and tv screens but I always admired Mandela's dignity, optimism and ability to reconciliate with his oppressors to move the country forward.

[talea51]

Throughout history atrocious and indiscriminate acts of violence in the name of politics occur again and again. When I was growing up parading around in my anti apartheid t shirts, one such act was the church street bombing, which mandela admitted in his biography to "signing off" from his prison. I am fully aware that it was an act of retaliation, but it was "disproportionate to political motive". I believe the man that left prison in 1990 was a strong, great leader, who was intent on pushing the country forward in a positive light. Personally I would have believed him a fantastic leader, if he had only publically apologised to the innocent victims of the anc and done more to move the radical members of the anc away from violence, even though he subsequently called for peace from the nation. Apartheid was horrendous in all respects, but why does change have to come down the barrel of a gun?
10 years later and we forgot about the church street bomb, and had the omargh bomb instead, since then obviously things have taken an even worse turn, but these acts imo can never be justified.
I personally look to Ghandi and luther for inspiration.

I agree with you. Mandela was a flawed man, who made mistakes but he learnt from those mistakes and he attempted to bring about reconciliation in SA.

His decision to form Umkhonto we Siswe has had far reaching ramifications. The fact that the ANC embraced violence and the philosophy that they taught has left a legacy of people in SA who believe that life is cheap, that it's fine to kill someone who stands in the way of what you want, no matter if all you want is a TV.

A war between Inkatha and the ANC raged for years with people being necklaced for daring to not support one or other side.

SA is a violent and terrifying country with a long legacy of intolerance (on both sides).

Mandela, to his credit, tried to change this. He realised that all the things that were done whilst the fight for freedom was being waged were counter productive once the struggle was over. When they decided to embark on an armed struggle, I don't think they realised the full implications of what they were doing.

I do not believe that sanctions caused the fall of apartheid. The SA government didn't give two hoots about sanctions, they had gold and diamonds (and they still do), they didn't care.

Apartheid fell because the National Party were losing support every single election. Apartheid fell because every election the NP had to redraw the electoral boundaries as more and more people voted against the National Party. The armed struggle was intensifying, tensions were very high and FW de Klerk knew that if he didn't do something, if apartheid wasn't dismantled on his terms, there was going to be a civil war. He realised that if the NP controlled the fall of apartheid, they could mitigate the prospect of wholesale bloodshed. He was a brave man, a racist, but a brave man. It took guts to do what he did and to bring about the first democratic elections in SA especially knowing that the NP would never govern again if he went through with it. It takes a brave man to do the right thing.

Which brings me back to Mandela. He could have been bitter and angry, he held extreme power. He could have unleashed that bitterness and anger on the people of SA. He could have whipped MK into a frenzy in which there could have been unparalled bloodshed. He could have embarked on a racial cleansing exercise. He didn't. He knew it wasn't the right thing for the people of SA. He recognised that there were many people (of all races) who hated the apartheid regime. He knew that what his country needed was for him to reach out and forgive. His country needed him to reconcile with the people who put him in prison.

That is why I think he was a great man.

[pheasantchick]

Talea - great post.

I'll be honest, I grew up knowing about the apartheid in South Africa, and knew it was wrong. As a student, I sang along to 'Free Nelson Mandela' in the disco etc. Apart from that, I didn't really know about SA history, and didn't really know about the 'terrorist' side of Nelson Mandela.

However, as you have said, after imprisonment, he worked for good and helped to bring about a lot of change. That is his legacy.

(When Nelson Mandela was freed, along with events such as the fall of the Berlin Wall, I felt a real sense of history, and felt that I was witnessing a momentous event, something i would never think I would see).

[talea51]

(When Nelson Mandela was freed, along with events such as the fall of the Berlin Wall, I felt a real sense of history, and felt that I was witnessing a momentous event, something i would never think I would see).

I think the 1990's was a decade of amazing political change. I find it incredible that my children will grow up in a world unaware of the Cold War, of the very real threat of a nuclear war between the superpowers of the Soviet Union and the USA. That they will never know what it was like to live in a world where Germany was divided. It still seems a bit unreal to me that after years of opposition, suddenly these regimes collapsed. The Berlin Wall came down, the Soviet Union disintegrated and there were democratic elections in South Africa.

We haven't seen that kind of political change in the last 10 years and we probably won't in the next 10 years although, to be honest, that's what I thought at the start of the 1990s so who knows - maybe we will.

[sbarnes]

We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.
Nelson Mandela

[Yamin151]

(When Nelson Mandela was freed, along with events such as the fall of the Berlin Wall, I felt a real sense of history, and felt that I was witnessing a momentous event, something i would never think I would see).

I think the 1990's was a decade of amazing political change. I find it incredible that my children will grow up in a world unaware of the Cold War, of the very real threat of a nuclear war between the superpowers of the Soviet Union and the USA. That they will never know what it was like to live in a world where Germany was divided. It still seems a bit unreal to me that after years of opposition, suddenly these regimes collapsed. The Berlin Wall came down, the Soviet Union disintegrated and there were democratic elections in South Africa.

We haven't seen that kind of political change in the last 10 years and we probably won't in the next 10 years although, to be honest, that's what I thought at the start of the 1990s so who knows - maybe we will.

I recommend a visit to Cosford Air Museum for anyone who feels very aware of the above, where our children grow up hopefully ( thank God) not experiencing Cold War etc, but we wanted them to know about it, and rather than just put on "two tribes" by Frankie, we took them here. As well as fab aeroplanes and loads of space to run around, it also has a whole hangar devoted to 20th century with separate sections on the Cold War, the Berlin Wall, east west divide and a great 12 seater kiosk with a constantly running film outlining the 9 or so days leading up to the Cuban missile crisis. I certainly learnt a lot, not least the horror at how close we came to nuclear war!
Oh, and it's all free!