Too Much Too Young (why britains primaries are failing)

[um]

One thing that strikes me the most when teaching children of 8 or 9 is how much they struggle to talk and express themselves. We play a version of, 'Just a minute,' (Radio 4 quiz) but with 40 seconds instead. When children have to talk about their holidays, the weather, sports, etc for 40 seconds, they really do struggle. The majority (and these are bright children) can just about manage two sentences. I now understand why.

[southbucks3]

Do not forget a small minority will have communication anxiety...co-ercing them in front of braying peers, to talk under pressure is the worst thing you can do to these children. However little snippets, little jobs, little partnership chats all help them, and the very controlled way in which the Hungarian teachers ask their children to communicate about things in small groups, would have been a godsend for my son's early years. Very few teachers know how to deal with or understand severe communication anxiety, particularly when the silence is often to the detriment of the child...eg. why wouldn't he call his name out when asked if he received a packet of sweets or if he wanted to be on a school team, when he was so good at the sport? I guess as teachers are normally very good at verbalising and talking in front of groups, there is an unfortunate lack of empathy.

[DIY Mum]

I understand what you are saying, SB. I have a girl in my class too but she is positioned next to TA and peers in small group on the carpet. When 'talk' situation arises, she does it in that group. We set up other scenarios too.

It's not good practice for teachers to talk too much. It's more effective when dc are given time to research info at home first, (similar to khan academy, flipped classroom philosophy) so that when it comes to 'talk time', their answers aren't elusive.

Actually, I find my year 1s quite keen to talk.

[yoyo123]

In this part of Kent there are significant numbers of children with language delay, this was identified at least 10 years ago. So many parents do not talk to their toddlers and babies. I hate it when I see young mums pushing a buggy or walking with children, listening to an i pod. It has a knock on effect when they get to school.

[Amber]

Sadly once 'English' was renamed 'literacy', any idea that oracy was important went right out of the window. In my last (brief - I found it very sad indeed) experience of a primary school teaching context (about 5 years ago, admittedly), talk was seen as a precursor to getting something down on paper rather than a valued activity in its own right. There was no idea of taking time to try and express things clearly, to listen and debate, it was more aimed at making sure everyone knew what they were going to write. This goes all the way down to nurseries where 'sounds' are corresponded to letters, or graphemes or whatever small children are taught to call them these days, rather than just enjoying the idea that we can talk and sing and recite poetry without needing to then write it all down.

And yes, I agree about mothers on iPods or texting when their children are in buggies - OK we all need a break and you can't hold a constant conversation with a toddler, but I was at the doctor's yesterday and there were 2 small children who were communicating in grunts and babble to a mother who did not once speak to them. I know that at that age my lot would have been holding forth and I would have been trying to get them to pipe down!

Finally, um - I took my youngest out of Reception too after similar scenes. He was only doing 2 days a week anyway (I refused to let him go longer as he was 4) and he used to get into the house and sit on the bottom stair sucking his thumb and gazing into space for about an hour. A friend of mine was co-ordinating teaching practice at the school he was in and she said he looked so sad there too - he had taught himself to tell the time and kept saying things like 'it's nearly time to see my Mummy' - while they were doing what she said were highly age-inappropriate things like looking for punctuation in 'Big Books'. We got as far as half term before I put a stop to it and got my little boy back.

[moved]

I'm back in primary at the moment and not liking what I see. Teaching schemes that robots can teach and the most boring curriculum I have ever seen. The attainment in the schools is very high and for an inner city one the regimented regime and high level of structure means the children are able to get through the day and value their learning. I would have hated this for my own children and feel sorry for the poor teachers who have to teach in such a restricted way. They are also working more than 60 hours each week to plan the lessons and mark the work!

[logic32]

Whilst I appreciate many points re forcing structured learning on children not willing or ready for it, I have obviously had very different experiences of early years education to many posting on this thread.

Both of mine went to pre-school 3 mornings a week at 2.5 years old for a year. Then school nursery 5 mornings a week for a year before finally starting reception at 4.5 years old. They thoroughly enjoyed all of it. I was lucky enough not to have to work full time until they were both in reception. Behind the scenes I'm sure the poor teachers and assistants worked very hard within the structures they had imposed on them, but my kids mainly had fun and came home excited by whichever topic they were doing that week. They genuinely wanted to learn

Neither gave me a backwards glance before going to their sessions and I admit to sometimes questioning whether this meant I was a 'bad' mother and I didn't stimulate them enough at home. Mostly I hoped it was just because they enjoyed it and were confident kids. I feel that the free time I had while they were there helped to make me more tolerant and available when they were at home so we could play.

I taught them to read ( via the old Peter & Jane books ) when they were four, because reading is a passion of mine and I wanted them to share that, not because I wanted to boast how clever they were ! That's the only formal home education I ever gave them.

I hope that they are both reasonably well rounded now and can't be too critical of the system that helped achieve that.

They have had good teachers doing their best despite any constraints the government, curriculum or Ofsted impose.

I am truly sorry that some children clearly have bad experiences by being expected to start school earlier than perhaps they are ready. But I also believe that it is the right course for other children to start school at 5.

Luckily we cant fit them all in one box ( Ofsted definitely wouldn't like that !)

[Amber]

I'm back in primary at the moment and not liking what I see. Teaching schemes that robots can teach and the most boring curriculum I have ever seen. The attainment in the schools is very high and for an inner city one the regimented regime and high level of structure means the children are able to get through the day and value their learning. I would have hated this for my own children and feel sorry for the poor teachers who have to teach in such a restricted way. They are also working more than 60 hours each week to plan the lessons and mark the work!

I have two friends who have moved their children from the state primary they were attending to an independent one...so that they can play more! The clever indie has cottoned on to the idea that some parents are questioning the idea that tiny children need force-feeding with phonics and number bonds and need some time outside, or doing art and music. Talk about a turnaround in the market, eh?

[doodles]

Seriously when mine were small I found it very hard to buy a pram/ buggy where my child sat facing me. It's these silly things that all add up, those inane conversations whilst they are in the supermarket trolley etc etc are all so important.

[southbucks3]

I searched until I found one too, when ds3 came along we attached the buggy board to the chassy between the handle and the seat and then ds2 used to jabber away to his baby brother and played with him and I talked complete cods wallop like current affairs (as far as they were concerned) to both them and ds1 holding onto the side of the handle. When ds2 abandoned the buggy board at two years old, he pushed his own little boy facing pram and baby doll..EVERYWHERE jabbering on to his doll. After a twice daily 2 mile round trip to primary school and back for ds1 I had to learn a lot of patience.

Husband reckons having dogs or cats before kids really helps you feel comfortable about talking to something or someone that cannot answer back properly, I think he may be right.