They Shall not grow old

[anotherdad]

I thought it was widely recognised that WWII was in the most part caused by Germany .... we were certainly taught that at school.

Well yes, but historians look back at the root causes. Why did Germany end up with the leader it did and why was he able to pursue the course he did? In large part, as a reaction to the terms imposed on Germany at the end of what was then known as the Great War. Would Hitler and **** Germany have emerged under a different agreement? Perhaps not.

WWI was grossly mismanaged in so many ways and the poor people who died and suffered in it were let down again by the way the peace was negotiated, which resulted in many of them going to war a second time, or at least seeing their descendants head off to war. The British troops were also treated poorly on their return. When my great-grandfather's regiment returned to Britain they were left to walk, hitch-hike and sneak onto trains to make their way back to Shropshire. They spent four years fighting in Europe and were just abandoned at the port when they got back, along with thousands of others.

[Amber]

If you think 'our' narrative of WW2 is flawed, just tune into Americans reminding us of how they saved us all. My late grandfather told me, 'we didn't worry so much about Jerry (the Germans), but if there was a Yank behind you, you ran for your life'. I gather that as well as the rather, er, spectacular end to WW2, they had a formidable reputation in the friendly fire department. They don't mention that all that often in their own versions of what happened, I imagine.

I think war narratives are always going to be basically nationalistic in tone, because no one wants to think in terms of wasted lives or public manipulation. I always think that if the people whose policies actually started the wars had to be the ones fighting them, there wouldn't be any. Always easier to send someone else to 'give their life' (hate that phrase) instead.

[yoyo123]

My husband is looking at nationalistic portrayals of history as part of his MA it's really interesting

[Amber]

My husband is looking at nationalistic portrayals of history as part of his MA it's really interesting

I imagine, yes. There is some really interesting stuff written about the difference between nationalism and patriotism (none, basically - depends which side you're on). I am using post colonial theory in an article ATM which touches on some of that.

[anotherdad]

I think war narratives are always going to be basically nationalistic in tone, because no one wants to think in terms of wasted lives or public manipulation. I always think that if the people whose policies actually started the wars had to be the ones fighting them, there wouldn't be any. Always easier to send someone else to 'give their life' (hate that phrase) instead.

I've been fortunate enough to visit Hiroshima and having previously only really been a student of the European elements of WWI and WWII conflicts, it led to me doing a lot more reading on the Pacific conflict. I found the ethical questions around the development and use of the atomic bomb to be some of the most grimly fascinating aspects of the wars because the science involved has the capability of ending not just wars but civilisations. I have read dozens of books on the subject and have stood directly underneath the detonation point of the Hiroshima bomb and visited the nearby museum and memorials but I still don't know whether dropping the bomb was the 'right thing to do' or not. I think it's a far too complex scenario to be sure either way. The experimental nature of the Hiroshima bombing is particularly distasteful, with the city having been deliberately preserved from the firebombing that other Japanese cities suffered so that the impact of the atomic bomb could be accurately measured. The US had spies photographing the city beforehand so they had a "before" record to compare to the aftermath. In other words, it was the subject of a grim experiment. Of course, whilst Hiroshima and Nagasaki are arguably more famous for their fates, Tokyo suffered more deaths from a firebombing raid in one night than were killed in either Hiroshima or Nagasaki and possibly more than both combined. I know an old lady in Tokyo who as a child, survived what was Operation Meetinghouse.

Sorry, I've taken the subject off-topic by nearly 30 years but WWII and the atomic bombs would not have happened as they did and when they did without WWI.

[Loopyloulou]

I thought it was widely recognised that WWII was in the most part caused by Germany .... we were certainly taught that at school.

Well yes, but historians look back at the root causes.

Very well, but let's go to the end of the root and don't stop half way. The root cause of the terms of the Versailles Treaty was the behaviour of Germany in the five years preceding it.

As a nation we have much to be proud of. We should hold our heads up high.

[Guest55]

As a nation we have much to be proud of. We should hold our heads up high.

Sorry, I cannot be 'proud' of war - just watch 'Oh what a lovely War!' and read about WWI and what the soldiers [and nurses] endured ....

[Guest55]

"Never again/remember" Eric Bogle written after a visit to a concentration camp [it is a 'song' but the words are what I prefer]

I have been to **** today.
I saw the Devil's naked face.
I felt the poison freeze my heart
In that evil, evil place.
I heard the ghosts cry out in warning,
Their voices ringing through the years.
I stood beneath the barbed wire fence,
And wept, and wept, bitter tears.
Never, never again!

I stood alone that winter's day,
On that barren killing ground.
Inside my head the voices grew
Till my brain was bursting with the sound.
They cried, "Comrade, do not forget us!"
And I replied, "I never will!"
And as my soul in anguish wept,
One by one, the voices stilled.
Never, never again!

Europe, sixty years ago - remember?
Depression, millions on the dole - remember?
In those dark despairing times
Of unemployment and bread-lines
A cancer grew, fat and malign - remember?

Its banner was a crooked cross - remember?
Its destiny a holocaust - remember?
Its creed was racial purity.
It fed on fear and bigotry.
Its touch was death and slavery - remember?

It's happening again. It's happening again.
Can't you see it's happening again?

Treblinka, Auschwitz and Dachau - remember?
David's Star, a people's shroud - remember?
No refuge and no hiding place
For non-members of the Master Race,
Whole nations enslaved and debased - remember?

Blood and toil and sweat and tears - remember?
The nightmare lasted six long years - remember?
The world drowned in a ****** tide
Of war and death and genocide.
Fifty-seven million died - remember?

I've lived in freedom all my life,
Never thinking much about the cost,
Of those who suffered and who died
So that freedom's flame would not be lost.
I saw the flame in Sachsenhausen.
In spite of all, it's burning yet.
To all the ghosts who guard the flame,
I promise you, I won't forget.
Never, never again!
Never, never again!

[anotherdad]

I thought it was widely recognised that WWII was in the most part caused by Germany .... we were certainly taught that at school.

Well yes, but historians look back at the root causes.

Very well, but let's go to the end of the root and don't stop half way. The root cause of the terms of the Versailles Treaty was the behaviour of Germany in the five years preceding it.

As a nation we have much to be proud of. We should hold our heads up high.

That's where for me, you are blurring patriotism and nationalism. Looking dispassionately and critically at the roles of states in wartime - including one's own - is a good thing. I can't blindly accept that everything "we" did was right and everything "they did" was wrong because it's far more nuanced than that and I wasn't there to be part of "us". Am I proud of the fact that my ancestors went to war for what they thought was right? Of course I am. Does it mean I must be permanently patriotic? No. How far back do we go? Are you equally proud of Britain's role in world affairs and conflicts further back in time? There's much to be ashamed of there alongside pride.

I remember the actions of those who've served and died in conflict and I'm grateful I haven't had to go to war. I'll bow my head to them rather than hold it high.

[Amber]

As a nation we have much to be proud of. We should hold our heads up high.

Sorry, I cannot be 'proud' of war

^^ totally agree.

LLL, do you see something to be proud of in our adventures in, for example, Iraq? Afghanistan? The Falklands? I think 'holding our heads up high' over some of the stuff that happened in colonial times is a bit tricky too. The legacies live on, and they are not all about afternoon tea down at the cricket club. I distance myself from 'we' here.