Summer Born

[RedPanda]

I like the Nordics. Finland is probably one of the most interesting places I've visited for work.

On my (intentionally long but scenic forest path) commute to work, I'd often see young children wandering around in supervised groups, presumably off to climb a tree or do some foraging. They looked happy and engaged. It was lovely to see and something I'd support in the UK.

They have their problems in later life though. Alcohol misuse and murder/suicide rates, to name a few. One wonders, where it goes wrong.

[Surferfish]

Indeed. Suicide rates in all the Scandanavian countries are higher than those in the UK so they are perhaps not the perfect Utopias that they are sometimes perceived to be.

I accept that the map below is based on 6 year old data, but still quite notable that the UK rate appears to be the lowest of all the northern European countries.

[Amber]

Much is written about this, but in fact firstly it is not true that their suicide rates are among the highest in the world; secondly there is apparently a link with long hours of darkness; and thirdly the Scandinavian nations consistently top international measures of happiness, for what those are worth. Nowhere is utopia. I have spent masses of time in Scandinavia and feel they have a huge amount to offer, but no society is without its problems and the Nordic nations are no exceptions. There are many factors behind suicide and the figures cannot give a true picture of what happens anywhere. There are around 500-600 suicides in Norway every year - because the population is small, the percentage can look high but that isn't actually a huge number (though still far too big, obviously) and you can't prevent them all, sadly.

The figure for the UK of 6.2 on that map is way out btw: the ONS puts the figure much higher than that:

Suicides in the UK. In 2017, a total of 5,821 suicides were registered in the UK. This equates to an age-standardised suicide rate of 10.1 deaths per 100,000 population; this is one of the lowest rates observed since our time series began in 1981, when the rate was 14.7 deaths per 100,000

The world population index says this:

Suicide occurs throughout the world, affecting individuals of all nations, cultures, religions, genders and classes. In fact, statistics show that the countries with the highest suicide rates in the world are incredibly diverse. For example, among the top five are the south Indian island nation of Sri Lanka (35.3 suicides per 100k), South Korea in east Asia (28.3 suicides per 100k) and the eastern European country of Lithuania (32.7 suicides per 100k). A number of other eastern European countries have high suicide rates, including Belarus, Poland and Latvia, all at around 22 suicides per 100k.

In contrast, the only western European nation with a particularly high suicide rate is Belgium, which ranks at number fifteen with 20.5 suicides per 100k. However, it is worth noting that Belgium has some of the world's most liberal laws on doctor-assisted suicide, which is likely to be a factor in its statistics. Interestingly, the country of Bhutan, which is famous for measuring Gross National Happiness, an index used to measure the collective happiness and wellbeing of its population, has a relatively high suicide rate at 11.7 per 100k.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog ... icide-rate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/03/ ... the-world/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But of course, nowhere is perfect and even I don't think that! I do reckon they are right about early childhood though.

[RedPanda]

Scandinavian nations consistently top international measures of happiness.

That, I believe, is down to equality. The executives I worked with were not paid huge salaries when compared to the rest of the staff. There is a definite sense of fair play. Quite refreshing.

As a nation (Finland) I found them reserved, stoic even. You don't see much laughter but equally, you don't see much unhappiness. It can feel quite alien, certainly if the last country you visited was the US

The suicide rate is something that the Finns are aware of though, at least with the people I worked with. Of course, everything is relative.

[Amber]

As a nation (Finland) I found them reserved, stoic even. You don't see much laughter but equally, you don't see much unhappiness. It can feel quite alien, certainly if the last country you visited was the US

This I can agree with. When I first started spending time in Scandinavia I was a bit taken aback by some of the things I encountered. For instance, one of my children threw a massively loud tantrum in a mid-sized Danish town. I genuinely don't think they had ever heard a child howl like that before - the place was so quiet and civilised and having a toddler stamping its feet and screaming drew a lot of stares. Even when I instructed OH to take the offender to the car and sit there until I had completed my purchase (pillowcases, I can never forget), I could still hear the screams echoing round the place. Now I know more about how children are treated there, I know why it drew attention. I have watched Swedish children kicking off and I have witnessed how parents deal with it (and l did learn from it) and I know now that the distraction and removal techniques we tried did not work in the same way as the quiet and calm, but firm and assertive ways Scandinavian parents favour in disciplining children.

We also found that people we first met in all the Nordic countries would be initially reserved and not 'in your face', but ultimately very loyal and great people to be friends with and yes, have a lot of laughs with. I find a lot of American 'friendliness' to be false, I am afraid - I have been on the wrong end of Americans promising me eternal love and friendship and basically forgetting all about me the next day. A sweeping stereotype on both sides there, with individual exceptions each way (I have some really lovely American friends now). Scandinavia does take some getting used to after the UK and America, but for me it has been the best place to spend time and I get very twitchy if I don't get up there at least once a year. I love the quiet civilisation, the good taste (going to Stockholm over Christmas and seeing the gentle white lights rather than flashing, pop-music blaring, multi-coloured Santas, for example) and, particularly, the respect for nature which sits at the heart of all the democracies there, is still a life-affirming thing despite the same creeping social problems and economic issues now as seen elsewhere. They have never had to deal with large scale migration as we do here, nor with the massive inequalities which our system encourages and theirs to a large extent prevents, or at least used to. I feel sad that a right wing government in Sweden in the 1990s did a lot of damage, but it was a backlash against what some felt was too much state control. I am watching with trepidation what happens over the next few years as I fully intend to try and find a way to live there eventually if I can, and if I can persuade OH that it will be better than Australia!

[RedPanda]

I am watching with trepidation what happens over the next few years as I fully intend to try and find a way to live there eventually if I can, and if I can persuade OH that it will be better than Australia!

I'm with Mr Amber on this one. I think I just like being warm.

Serious question Amber. Is the play based year in Reception as close to the Scandinavian model as we will get in this country, do you think?

The very existence of the phonics test seems to me, to scupper any innovation from the early years teachers.

On a personal note:- Our pre-school was fantastic. Run, of course, by a group of 'mature' ladies, who I suspect, couldn't care less what OFSTED thought. The little man was always filthy when he came home

[silverysea]

Amber could you give some examples of what you saw with the ”firm and assertive” Scandinavia approach?

That ship has sailed long ago for my dc but I am interested because people ask me for advice.

I worried a lot about my August baby in the UK school system and while I think it is way too rigid with little kids and too much constant testing and peer comparison, I think we navigated it ok with lots of added parental enrichment (libraries, nature, non-traditional sports, activities and music) and mainly were lucky with teachers. She is a happy soul and wasn’t bothered much about not being able to do some stuff right away, and the teachers seemed aware of her age despite being tall. My other dd is hyper aware of any possible shortcomings on her part and gets down on herself easily, so it’s good she’s a middle of the year baby! Personality is very important.

[Amber]

Amber could you give some examples of what you saw with the ”firm and assertive” Scandinavia approach?

I can try. One which sticks in my mind is of a little girl in a supermarket whose mother had just received a call from the father requesting a lift home from work - either his car had broken down or he was ill or something, I didn't hear this part. This information was relayed to the child, and it was instantly clear that this did not accord with her own view of how the rest of the morning was to be spent. She demonstrated this opinion by beginning to have a tantrum in the way that parents will be familiar with. What then happened was that the mother bent down to the child's level, held her firmly by the shoulders and spoke clearly and calmly to her while looking her in the eyes. The child was informed of the fact that the father would be collected from work and that she, the child, would be accompanying the mother as soon as the shopping was finished; that there was no choice in the matter and that resistance would be futile. This incident came back to me yesterday in fact when I saw a child having a massive hissy fit at my local supermarket so had cause to contrast what I think is a common response here. The child was taken out of the trolley in which it was standing (!) and pulled to the cake counter, where it was told 'look, look at all those cakes. Shall we choose one? Ooh, which one would you like?', by means of distraction and bribery. I have seen this many times - threats - 'if you don't behave you won't get any sweets' - and bribes - 'behave and you can have some sweets' - basically. I often see children here being fed sweets and cakes which aren't even paid for yet to keep them quiet in shops! I hate that so much I struggle not to say something to the parents!

The Scandinavian way, from what I have seen, learned from friends and from books (and I have seen many incidents since this one, including one in London which turned out to be a Swedish mother, same posture, down at the child's level - this one had had enough of walking and was being told that there was not much further to go and that the best thing was to keep walking as it would take less time then), is to explain to a child that unfortunately things are not going their way right now but that the needs of others sometimes mean that their own needs have to wait. I have never witnessed a Scandinavian child being hit, sworn at (sadly I see a lot of this here), bribed or threatened, nor even shouted at. Now I am not suggesting none of it goes on, nor that all Nordics are model parents. Maybe they are all yelling and swearing and bribing and threatening behind closed doors (which at least means the rest of us don't have to witness it ). And I also know that it can be exhausting to explain every decision to a 3 year old. In fact you don't necessarily need to debate it every time, just 'I am sorry you're not happy with that, but we need to finish the shopping. When it is done then we can go home and play', is more how it goes. There is no doubt who is in charge, but the child's voice is acknowledged, without there being a silly capitulation or a yielding of power inappropriately - I have seen tiny tots totally derail family trips, restaurant visits and the like here. It does I think presuppose that nothing unreasonable is being demanded of a tired or hungry child, for example, and I also think it recognises the different model of childhood which prevails there (child as valuable in its own right, but growing up as part of a democracy where others have rights too).

That is my take on it anyway - I have studied models of childhood across the different countries and seen a lot at first hand too. Two of my children's earliest educational experiences were with a Scandinavian EY teacher so I watched that and changed my own parenting a lot under her influence. And it may be changing - my more recent trips have not taken me into contact with too many little ones, though I have to say I don't hear a lot of screaming going on.

And RedPanda - 'play based Reception' here bears no resemblance to the outdoor pre schools I have visited in Scandinavia, but sadly I think yes, it is probably as close as we will get. I did come across this organisation the other day though - it looks interesting. When my own children were little I belonged to something called Let The Children Play, which I think no longer exists, but there are still voices out there against the hegemonic testing culture.

http://alternativesineducation.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ETA I just googled Let the Children Play and there is an organisation of that name, but it is not the same one as when I was a member and seems to be some kind of business - totally different people - so am not recommending it!

ETA 2 - Of course not all parents here threaten or bribe children, nor shout/swear/wallop them either. I do think however that there is some confusion often between where the rights of the child lie and where standards of civilised behaviour are best served by a little discipline. Child centred does not have to mean indulgent; and letting children have their own way all the time can in my view do them as much of a disservice as being unnecessarily authoritarian. It is a fine line and one much easier to impose when the child in question is not one's own.

[kenyancowgirl]

Whatever you think of the Royal family, the approach Amber describes is one that Kate and William Middleton affect with their children to great affect.

I suspect the lack of crying you note, Amber, may well be to do with the prevalence of screens, rather than the Nordic approach, sadly.

[booellesmum]

DD1 was due Sept 16th and was born August 16th.
DD2 was due Sept 19th and was born August 20th.
So both prem and ended up Summer borns in the "wrong" school year.
DD1 really struggled emotionally in reception and notably stuck with the younger children. She has had more anxiety going through school and is going to take a much needed year out after A levels.
DD2 was fine from the word go. Far more laid back with a mix of ages for friends. Generally takes school in her stride.
Is this because she is the second child or that they are just like chalk and cheese personality wise?
They have both survived starting school at just 4 and both managed a place at GS.
However, I do think that in general we send our little ones into formal school far too early and put too much pressure on them from then on.