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doodles
Posts: 8300
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:19 pm

Re: MFL

Post by doodles »

We watch that every Saturday night too - the best one was where Linda was kidnapped - made the KB version look like Playschool!
guest43
Posts: 237
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:06 pm

Re: MFL

Post by guest43 »

My task for today is discover how many students in the UK actually took Mandarin Chinese A Level. It seems to be lumped in with Other Modern Languages which is everything that is not French, German and Spanish and the latest figure is 5898. If I was to be extremely generous I would say 2000 of those took Mandarin Chinese, of which maybe 50% did not have it as their first language..so let us say 1000.

To put this in context 70000 students took A Level Mathematics. So it is clearly currently a definite niche subject.

Is it a suitable subject choice for someone who has a definite love of language, proven ability in this field and is considering a career outside the country? Maybe

Is it a suitable subject choice for an 11 year old at primary school, with probably limited exposure to foreign language-both academic and practical, who in all probability is going to develop skills and interests in science or business? And when it means they can't study any "conventional" languages (i.e non-fady) like French and Spanish. Um in my book No it's not.

This should not be a choice made at the start of Year 7. At the very least a pupil should have a year of language at secondary school behind them before making these options. It's like asking an 11 year old whether they would like to study quantum physics or experimental physics.
doodles
Posts: 8300
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:19 pm

Re: MFL

Post by doodles »

Nothing wrong with niche subjects in my book - I did A level Latin (when they were A Levels! - that long ago) and it has proved a talking point ever since. Before you ask I didn't even go on to study classics at Uni, I did Applied Sociology (a whole different story) I just really enjoyed Latin that 's all!
Amber
Posts: 8058
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:59 am

Re: MFL

Post by Amber »

This is clearly something about which you feel very strongly, guest43. If our country had a history of turning out accomplished linguists in 'non-faddy' languages such as those you cite, and of leading the world in linguistic excellence, then I might say you had a point. As it is, we limp behind the rest of the world, with most people managing a few badly-pronounced stock phrases in one, maybe 2 European languages. I know of not one single school where choosing Mandarin would prevent a child from studying one of those mainstream languages you are so fond of, and in which the GCSEs are almost laughably easy. It is hardly as if we have a robust culture of linguistic brilliance under threat from a few kids choosing to learn Mandarin, and possibly giving themselves an avenue into a different kind of future by doing so. Take-up of language GCSEs is at an all time low - and some of us think that actually matters.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" - but what if it is broke? Try something a little different, maybe?
guest43
Posts: 237
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:06 pm

Re: MFL

Post by guest43 »

If we go back to the original thread the question was-should my DC at the start of Yr 7 opt for Mandarin Chinese, French, Italian and Spanish? (choose 2 from 4)

I still don't think that is the right time for someone to choose, At my DD school everyone does French in Yr7 and then has the option to add German and Spanish (or drop French) in Year 8 (but they have to study at least one Modern Language to GCSE). Similarly everyone in Year 7 does Latin and then Greek is an option in Year 9. This means that students can be steered to the most appropriate subjects based on ability and enjoyment based on evidence.

My DD studies Greek and enjoys this so I a not against niche subjects-but I would not have expected the school at the start of Year 7 to have said to me Greek or French? (You have to choose one).

But if I had the dilemma of the person who originally started this thread, who has a child who may turn out to be the world's best linguist (but by the law of averages probably won't) then there is no way on earth that I would pick Mandarin Chinese if it meant they couldn't study ANY French or Spanish.
Amber
Posts: 8058
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:59 am

Re: MFL

Post by Amber »

As monstermum's son can choose 2, he could opt for Mandarin and French or Spanish if he felt he didn't want to miss out for whatever reason on one of the standard 2 offerings.

Just because something has 'traditionally' been done (French) doesn't mean it automatically has value. A lot of stuff goes on, in education as in all spheres, because it has been ever thus - no questions asked. If you go and look at what is actually required to get a GCSE in French, you might be surprised: able students would almost certainly be able to do it at the end of Year 9. Getting a GCSE in French has very little 'real world' application; ditto Spanish - you can't just apply that rule to Mandarin and say it doesn't pass the relevance test unless you are sure that the alternatives are being usefully and frequently practised abroad.

I have no particular axe to grind about Mandarin; but I do recognise that the state of MFL teaching and learning in England is pretty parlous, and I would love to see a creative answer to that, perhaps in offering more unusual languages which would capture students' imagination (the ones I taught Russian all loved it, partly because of the novelty of a new alphabet), rather than just churning out more and more mediocre Francophones; or more likely, children who can't speak a word of another language at all because they drop it as soon as they can.
daughter
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:23 pm
Location: Warwickshire

Re: MFL

Post by daughter »

In reply to the OP something important to consider/ask the school is their commitment and plans for "less common languages" such as mandarin. The reason being that DC may take to it but can the school reliably plan for a good teacher for the next x number of years (easier perhaps if you are in a densely poplulated area or pays well Indie). I would dearly have loved my DC to have learnt Russian at school as we have close ties with the country/language unfortuately we were unable to find a school that offered it in a reliable and meaningful way. Even the evening class at our local FE college had to cancel their classes as they lost their teacher.... Anyway just another thing to bear in mind.
inkypinkyponky
Posts: 1863
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:41 pm
Location: Gravesend, Kent

Re: MFL

Post by inkypinkyponky »

doodles wrote:
Amber wrote: everyone speaks English these days, don't they?
If you can call it English :lol: :lol: Living where we do in Kent I regularly come across that rather odd "dialect" Estuary English - which drives me mad :roll: :lol: Don't jump on me - I have no problem with regional accents at all - it's just that this particular one is plain laziness!

I kno wotcha mean, doodles m'dear, lazy-English drives me bonkers too, 'specially lost aitches!


Saw an advert in the local paper today for an alcohol and drug person (to prevent use as opposed to how to use them, I hope!) who also had to be fluent in Latvian, Kosovan or Punjabi.

So maybe local schools offering French, German or Spanish are rather out of date?

Or should other languages be offered in certain areas where needed?

(sorry, gone off main subject, but lots to think about!)
Edited for spellings.
doodles
Posts: 8300
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:19 pm

Re: MFL

Post by doodles »

And the lost "tees" and "dees" Inky. All those words that seem to end on "cha"!!!

I completely agree that the teaching of a language plays a huge part in how children get on - I had an ancient Hungarian trying to teach me French, the accent combination was out of this world. On the other hand DS1 had a fantastic teacher at prep and has found his language skills and is fascinated by languages. Would this have come out (seeing as DH is linguistically inclined) possibly/probably? But she certainly opened the floodgates - when has a boy ever done what his parents advised!!
guest43
Posts: 237
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:06 pm

Re: MFL

Post by guest43 »

Ah well I spoke to my Yr9 DD about the idea of having to choose languages in Yr 6. In her words she thought the idea "complete pants". And that as far as I am concerned is my last word!
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