Grammar school vs Non-grammar

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SteveDH
Posts: 464
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:30 pm
Location: Harrow

Re: Grammar school vs Non-grammar

Post by SteveDH »

My DD also went to a 'top grammar' (according to some league tables).
They were pushed and expectations were hight, however teaching wasn't anything to write home about and she never seemed to learn anything in lessons.
She seemed to spend most of her homework time looking through text books (massive big heavy things) and the internet to try and work out how to do it. I'd ask didn't they do this in lessons and she'd usually say 'no' or that she couldn't remember.
She never had a tutor although some of her friends did for certain subjects.
In the end though she did manage some reasonable grades.
It could just be that she's not very good at concentrating in lessons, she's now at uni and has much the same problem, i.e. doesn't take anything in in lectures...
ccl
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:52 am

Re: Grammar school vs Non-grammar

Post by ccl »

Hi all,
thanks for your advice. It does help to hear different points of view and especially from those who have experienced non-gs/gs all the way through. As someone mentioned, different schools may be more or less lenient in the first term of y7.

As I mentioned, all my dc are very happy and get along with their peers. Never heard of any bullying. My non-gs dc seems happier with the teachers - finds them fair and strict enough. My gs dc often mention some teachers who hand out detentions (for what it seems like - filtered through a 13year olds mind...) silly reasons. So, my gs dc are less at ease during lessons, which is of course not optimal when they try to learn (and possibly...) enjoy the subject. Most gs teachers are popular with the children though - only a few sticking out as less friendly.

I'll see how classwork/hw turn out next term before raising any concerns to the school. Letting my dc spend time in the afternoon with mymaths/languageonline/cambridge latin course is actually not too bad. Might be the best solution after all.
Waynetta
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:58 pm

Re: Grammar school vs Non-grammar

Post by Waynetta »

My DD has just started at a local girls grammar. Her sister is in Yr 9 at a good local comp. I have been struck by several differences

higher expectations at the grammar -achievable but high
as you say, text books (never at the comp, but they are very poorly funded) and books coming home
much more traditional teaching-lots of writing in French and exercises
homework much more relevant- building on what's been taught/extending
generally the pace of learning is much higher and how they learn more sophisicated; Latin vocab tests not just the words, but using lots of words learnt so far in sentences
not teaching to the test like the comp, but getting them to think, esp in maths (lots of enrich maths) and topics such as binary division etc my elder top set maths never did

However my elder DD does very well in Spanish and art-she needs to understand to do well in subjects she needs to spend a little time revising topics as she goes (she sees this as a massive waste of time)
I have no doubt the pace will ramp up in yrs 10 & 11 (I hope so, she currently gets about 1 hour homework max per week)-I hope she can create good study habits having had a really easy ride of it so far.
onebigdilemma
Posts: 232
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:58 pm

Re: Grammar school vs Non-grammar

Post by onebigdilemma »

Hi
I agree with most that you have said. I have twins and although of a similar ability one passed 11 + and one didn't. I have been shocked at the differences in the amount that is taught, amount of homework and the level difference in the work that is set.
I did consider trying to get the twin who didn't get in for year 7 into year 8 but I think with his personality he is enjoying being top of the class in a lot of subjects and although bright I am not sure if he would keep up with the pace of the GS without getting stressed. I also think that missing the first year will put him quite far behind the rest of the year.
The non GS doesn't cover things in as much depth and the GS teachers appear to go off on a tangent in their lessons speaking more widely about the subjects rather than just what is needed (so my son says).
It is hard to believe they will be sitting the same exams.
We too at the non GS have had a lot of posters to do! I do hope they ramp up the work, I guess it is early days.
PurpleDuck
Posts: 1586
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Re: Grammar school vs Non-grammar

Post by PurpleDuck »

Waynetta wrote:I have no doubt the pace will ramp up in yrs 10 & 11 (I hope so, she currently gets about 1 hour homework max per week)-I hope she can create good study habits having had a really easy ride of it so far.
Maybe it just is her school's policy that they set very little homework? My DS, in a state primary, was getting an hour homework a week in year 5 and 2 pieces of up to 40 mins each in year 6... All comes back home checked by teachers every week. Older children I know, who are in local comprehensives, were getting up to an hour homework a night, 3-4 nights a week from the beginning of year 7.
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mystery
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Re: Grammar school vs Non-grammar

Post by mystery »

ccl wrote:Having children in both grammar and non-grammar, has left me feel somewhat shocked with how differently the children are pushed/taught. My experiences are that
1) No text books (to bring home. My dc was refused when he asked) in non-grammar. In grammar, they have text books to bring home in most subjects (either online or normal book).
2) Hardly any relevant homeworks in non-grammar. Around 3/week and these are often along the lines a) make a poster, b) colour in flags c) write a poem (this was the in maths! by the way dc has only had 2 hw in maths for the past 10 weeks). In gs plenty of hw around 3/day. Usually things to learn and then later be tested on.
3) In non-grammar, the children extremely rarely get to bring their notebooks home (dc had to ask for permission and was first refused. teacher could not understand that he wanted his notebook the day before a test! "You don't need to look in that one" he was told.). In grammar, parents get to browse through their notebooks at least weekly.
4) Standard of maths lesson in y7 far below what happened in y6 in non-gr. Dc in top set and they get to do Rockstar maths (some game practising timestables up to 10) and making posters. My dc was level 5a in y6 and so were most likely quite a few of his peers in his set. No challenges. His friend said regarding their maths teacher "he's the funniest and best teacher, but he'll never, ever teach us anything".
5) In non-gr. they are far behind in most (not all - one or two exceptions) subjects. I've kept older children's notes and eg. in French, in Grammar school, they had covered at least 5 times as much.
6) In non-Gr, only one foreign language is allowed! So, only French. No Latin, German, Spanish.
7) Sadly, I have to spend week-ends trying to keep my dc on track and challenge him in esp maths, French. Not sure how we'll cope for 6 years. I really did not anticipate this. When he didn't pass, I shrugged, and thought they are all getting taught the same since they are sitting the same gcses.

All my dc love their schools and have no problem with friends but I'm quite shocked that grammar and non-gr seem to play in completely different leagues. They're all heading for the same gcse's but children in grammar have a massive advantage. We did choose a non-gr with the best reputation (gcse levels etc) in our vicinity.

I realise this is controversial, but I feel sad that a child who narrowly passes and a child who fails the 11+ are deemed such different education.

I've considered approaching the school and point out that I am convinced that the children could manage more challenges and hw, but I fear that we'll just be stuck with more posters to colour in - and I'll embarrass my dc in the process.

We will of course try for the 12/13+ but I believe there are not many vacant places.

Any advice? Has anyone got similar experiences and successfully managed to change how the children get challenged.
Mmmm ---- interesting. I think this is a school versus school comparison rather than a grammar to non-grammar comparison. I have one at a superselective. Here's the experience so far:

1. Text books - we have three only, French, Latin and Spanish. They don't follow the French and Spanish ones particularly closely or logically - looks to me like they would learn more if they did. Variety of homeworks - some are not well explained and not well marked - errors left by both peer marking and teacher marking - same for classwork. Learning vocab etc for tests - yes but it supposed to be done from exercise book (not the text book as they don't follow it closely enough) but exercise book has mistakes in .....

No text books in other subjects

2. Homeowrk - quite a few homeworks that I can't entirely see the point of. Some good homeworks. Quite a mixed bag. Depedns on the teacher I think. Hoemwork instructions often not clear or ambiguous - why didn't you ask? End of lesson, I did ask her to email it as I didn't understand what she'd written on the board ... she said it was claear on the board ... but it's not --- ask someone else then -- they are all puzzled too.

3. Exercise books - rarely / never get to see them in some subjects- teacher seems to keep them (maybe they're too shocking, I don't know). In other subjects they exercise books are kept at home and taken in by child on relevant days. Sometimes get "learn this for homework" for test on Friday --- where's your exercise book to learn from? The teacher took it in today. Teachers don't plan ahead anymore it would seem!

4. Maths - gone backwards in speed of recall of number facts since year 6, probably learned a few new things but not much.

5, 6, 7, sorry can't compare but my feeling is that in most subjects the material being passed through is fine --- but it's just not taught particularly well --- I did used to teach four subjects at a comprehensive myself so I'm making a gut judgement here from what I see in the exercise books (in the subjects that I see), the marking and the way the homework does or does not fit.

It's very patchy is my conclusion, but overall, I think it will work out in the end and there'll be fantastic results as ever ........... but some teachers are, in my view, getting away with it because the majority is bright and motivated and probably will pull out tutors if necessary later on!

How to get more out of your current school for your son? Until you have met each teacher at parents' evening it's hard to say --- I think you maybe have to think of one thing which would massively improve things for your son in that subject and have a very pleasant chat with each subject teacher and somehow weave in this little request, whatever it is.

What ofsted grade is the comprehensive and when was it last inpsected? TBH, I value OFSTED judgements less and less as time goes by. Think it's a bit like hospital inspections --- political.
J50
Posts: 296
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:35 am

Re: Grammar school vs Non-grammar

Post by J50 »

PurpleDuck wrote:
Waynetta wrote:I have no doubt the pace will ramp up in yrs 10 & 11 (I hope so, she currently gets about 1 hour homework max per week)-I hope she can create good study habits having had a really easy ride of it so far.
Maybe it just is her school's policy that they set very little homework? My DS, in a state primary, was getting an hour homework a week in year 5 and 2 pieces of up to 40 mins each in year 6... All comes back home checked by teachers every week. Older children I know, who are in local comprehensives, were getting up to an hour homework a night, 3-4 nights a week from the beginning of year 7.

DS is in Y7 at a (pretty) selective Independent and gets about 1hr20 a night, but as he is diligent often spends 2 hours+ on it. I guess we have shorter terms and also a couple of homework holiday weeks! This was from the start of the year, I think he got homework on Day 2! He seems to cope with it pretty well, and there are a constant stream of tests that he revises for also. At his state primary the most he got was 30 mins a WEEK - except in the period before SATs when they gave out much more as practice for those but he didn't bother doing those booklets.
shrimpy
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:57 am

Re: Grammar school vs Non-grammar

Post by shrimpy »

My experience is that it's more a matter of the school ethos and the teachers they have than whether it's a grammar or not.

My son is at a grammar that fits the OP's description of their kid's comp, i.e. no text books, "lite" homework, etc - basically relying on notes made in class and "scrappy worksheets". He's in year 9 now, and no sign of them upping the game at all. We thought it was probably OK in year 7 as the "settling in" process and expected a ramp up in year 8, nothing happened, now year 9, still the same. Quite worrying really.

They have a VLE on their website which I suppose it a replacement for text books, but it's so haphazard it's barely useable - some subjects have literally nothing in their section, whilst others are so overloaded with links, online textbooks, etc., you really don't know where to start. Worst still is that it's not up to date - as our son found last summer when he was working to a "summer exam revision" cribsheet downloaded from their VLE only to find the exam completely different - the sheet on the internet was for an earlier year and had not been removed (and hadn't been dated!).

The thing that has really worried us is the massive difference in teaching standards. Some teachers give out regular homework (occasionally demanding) but others give out virtually nothing. I.e. in year 7, he got maths homework twice per week, but in year 8 he only got 2 maths homeworks for the entire year. Resulting in dropping from 90%+ end of year test result in year 7 down to just over 50% in year 8.

At first, we were happy to allow the school/teachers to run things and just went along with what they were doing and saying, but this year, we've taken over, we've bought a load of GCSE text books and are working through them with him ourself, in parallel with the topics they're doing in class. We've also spoken and emailed several times to the teachers, head of year, form teacher, etc., spelling out the inconsistency in homework, highlighting their VLE is barely useable, etc., but really not getting any sensible improvements, so we're really picking up the slack ourselves.

So, not all comps will be like yours and not all grammars will be like that either. As I say, our son's grammar sounds more like the OP's comp. It's good to know that there are some grammars out there that are a bit more organised/pushy. I can't really believe that there is such a difference in teaching styles/standards.
Stroller
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Re: Grammar school vs Non-grammar

Post by Stroller »

What some of you are describing resonates with the story told in this article: http://gu.com/p/4hcf8?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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ToadMum
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Re: Grammar school vs Non-grammar

Post by ToadMum »

Stroller wrote:What some of you are describing resonates with the story told in this article: http://gu.com/p/4hcf8?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Well, I can name three children this teacher has never taught :shock: . Which doesn't rule him/her out completely from being a teacher in any of the two grammars and a not officially well thought of but surprisingly nice comprehensive they have attended between them, true, but for good or occasionally not so good reasons, no teacher has ever failed to greet my child by name at a parents evening.
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