Grammar School Expansion ?

[tiffinboys]

At least, Diane Abbott said that her decision to send her son to indie was 'indefensible'.

[mike1880]

You can make that 21 (if you're still speaking to me after that "probably"), ours has achieved nowhere near his "potential". I'm firmly convinced he would have done at least as well, and probably significantly better, at a good comprehensive but we didn't have a good comprehensive to send him to. It remains to be seen whether he will make anything of his life but I'm not hopeful; and that is imo not despite going to a grammar, it is in part because he went to a grammar.

Grammar schools always appear to be doing dazzlingly well academically compared to non-selective schools. Which is to be expected (and should be expected as the very minimum they ought to achieve) considering that they're skimming off the equivalent of roughly the top dozen or so children from any given non-selective school.

[mystery]

+1,

As demand is there, more grammars please.

I would love to see more secondary moderns. It would be great for so many more children to be branded a failure at 11. Teenagers these days are far too big for their boots and bringing most of them down a peg or two so they are aware of their own lack of potential at a young age would be a great use of resources, I feel. The recruitment crisis in teaching would be solved overnight as teachers fought to work with young people with low self esteem who believed they aspire only to low paid jobs...like teaching.

It would also be a great use of all that money we have saved via Brexit, aside from all the extra which is washing about in the NHS at the moment. Reports of a crisis there are clearly ridiculous, as that nice Mr Hunt has just said so and I believe him.

Tractor production is up this year and the potato harvest is better than ever too.

Oh yes! But won't we need fewer school places and fewer GPs and hospitals soon? And we certainly won't need all these new homes the government wants developers to build out of the kindness of their hearts on the greenbelt which landowners have been keeping for wildlife but will reluctantly have to give up for homes. It's only because we can't manage our borders while we are in the EU that we need to expand schools / build more homes / queue at the surgery/ pay to go the cinema isn't it? And some places are dirty because our vacuum cleaners are not powerful enough due to EU rules. Once everyone who shouldn't be here - including people who cross county boundaries to go to school - has gone back to where they should be we can sit down and eat our potatoes off a clean carpet in peace and not worry about big issues.

[RedPanda]

I work in educational research

Genuine question Amber - What are your thoughts on the effects of grammar schools on the individual? I've seen conflicting findings. The assumption I had (and I guess the same as most people on here) was that DC's would achieve higher grades etc.

[mystery]

I don't know what Amber's thoughts are but mine are that grades are to do with the teachers' teaching and the learners' learning - and clearly chopping a load of people out via an academic test is going to help the school results too. And there are many factors which affect both of those. Not sure whether the word grammar makes a difference or not in all that big hotch potch.

I could give you some detailed descriptions of poor teaching at highly selective grammars but their results are great nevertheless. The cynic in me would say it has to be a really bad grammar school not to get good grades after you've sifted out a lot of pupils who could be bothered to sit a test and, presumably, the school also has a good show of teaching applicants for interview when a vacancy arises.

But your question was if an invididual child would get better results at a grammar school, all other things being equal. That all depends on what school you are comparing it with surely.

[Surferfish]

It's debateable whether or not an individual bright child will do better at a grammar than a non-grammar. I'm sure people can provide personal examples to argue either way, but you'd have to think that on balance they might do slightly better at a grammar otherwise an awful lot of parents and children are wasting a great deal of time, money and stress for nothing!

That's not really the point though as far as I'm concerned. For me the biggest argument against grammars is related to those children who DON'T end up going to them (i.e. the majority of the population) who will likely end up doing worse than they would at a comprehensive in a non-selective state system.

[Amber]

I haven't got time to dig it out now but the only piece of research I know about was published last year and concluded that the average child at a grammar school would get between 0.4 and 0.6 of one GCSE grade higher, over 8 GCSEs (as in, in one subject out of 8 ), than had they gone to an all-ability school. The confidence intervals were so wide as I recall that even this tiny benefit could not be conclusively demonstrated.

Conversely, the negative effect on other local schools was considerably more than this - as in, children in a selective area who don't go to a selective school are likely to do worse than if all children were taught together. This is certainly in line with all the international research I know about as well. The headline message I recall from lectures on the matter is that all except the very top performers do much better in an all-ability setting, and the top performers are unlikely to do any worse - if they do it is by a very tiny margin.

And yes, Surferfish, precisely that.

[tiffinboys]

There are just two or three counties which could be called grammar areas, like Bucks or Kent.

Areas like Kingston, Sutton, Barnet or Gloucester where there are more than 5 non-selective schools for every grammar school are not grammar areas in my opinion. In such areas, the above conclusions are not valid.

The best viable solution is improving the teaching and funding for all the schools. Grammars do not get more funds than non-selective schools.

[RedPanda]

A house move and 20 hours a week of intensive hot house tutoring for half a single GCSE grade? I feel cheated

Pretty much what I expected, I guess. At the end of the day the grammar system segregates the "top set" kids at the age of 10-ish. From a societal perspective, that is far from ideal!

[Catseye]

We have had this argument so many times on this forum, the anti-grammar league produce evidence after evidence often peer reviewed and pro-grammar brigade produce anecdote after anacdote ......................around and around we go

I have given up, it's like trying to have an intelligent conversation with creationists !