Grammar School Expansion ?

[Amber]

Very good observations by PF.

I am on break till Amber comes back with her data. I would like to see that for GCSEs as being more comparable. Too many cohort changes at 6th Form.

Then you will have a long break. I told Tinkers I wouldn’t post on here again and got sucked back in defending myself. I can’t be bothered to compile stats which are freely available on the internet for anyone who has the desire to look at them. Take a look at the single sex grammar schools in Gloucestershire if you’re that bothered.

Not being rude btw. Working away and also think my input has run its course.

[tiffinboys]

Hi, Amber

As mystery also pointed out, I could not find comparable data on dfe site. So I thought may be you have data or could provide link to reliable data, where we could see the performance of similar high ability entrants to selective/super-selective and non-selective schools and see how one would draw conclusion that selective/super-selective schools were performing below non-selectives in your area.

Of course, I understand you are busy working and away from home. Will wait for when you could elaborate your earlier comments with data. Just looking at some single sex school would not provide meaningful comparison.

[Amber]

TB I have no wish to continue this ‘debate’. I consider that the figures you are asking for probably don’t exist and if they do they are likely to show what the only study into this has shown: that there is a tiny benefit to ‘able’ children who go to grammar school versus those who go to all ability schools, but that the disadvantage to those who don’t get In outweighs this.

I did not ever claim to have the figures you are asking for and am certainly not going to waste any time looking for them as I consider them uninteresting and irrelevant. If you have such a passionate interest in the matter could I respectfully suggest you consider a master’s degree in Education and Society which will help you to explore these matters in the detail you clearly wish to understand. Meanwhile in case you would like a reminder of what I actually did say, it was this.

Some of the (supposedly super selective - horrid term) grammar schools get worse results, especially at A level, than several non selective schools where I live. And that is before you even look at trying to standardise the data to extrapolate from KS2.

[tiffinboys]

I am aware what you exactly posted and my query was to confirm your assertion or find against it. Since those assertions were not based on data which we could study, I therefore leave it to the readers to make their own view about the unverifiable assertions made by you.

To me, those assertions do not hold, in the absence of any data.

[mike1880]

You have something of a backlog of unsupported assertions and unanswered questions to deal with before you can realistically expect anyone else to deal with theirs.

[Amber]

I am aware what you exactly posted and my query was to confirm your assertion or find against it. Since those assertions were not based on data which we could study, I therefore leave it to the readers to make their own view about the unverifiable assertions made by you.

To me, those assertions do not hold, in the absence of any data.

I am beginning to feel a bit stressed by this TB and hounded. I would ask you please to stop trying to make this personal. I cannot deal with the way you like to debate I’m afraid - as Mike says, you don’t deal with challenges to your own opinion and saying that you will leave others to draw their own conclusions about me has upset me. Please stop now.

[mystery]

It's made me want a Kit Kat and I really do not need any more calories today even though it's only 10:06.

[RedPanda]

"Are we there yet?" as my kids would say.

Definitely time to let this go. I can't speak for Amber (or Mystery) but I suspect they were giving examples of non-selective schools that outperformed grammar schools for high ability children. We don't need to check to know this is the case.

The wider question of how do non-selective schools compare to grammar schools in general is less clear but it appears that the evidence and reasoning points to a small advantage in favour of grammar schools. That should be challenged but not by us as I suspect it needs a lot of thought, time and a PhD.

I don't know about the rest of you but I'm not volunteering for that gig

[Surferfish]

Hi tiffinboys,

I am still waiting for a proper answer to the question I asked you a week ago, as to why you believe that Grammar schools are good for society as a whole, rather than just those who attend them. Hopefully you have some 'data' to back this up, but even if not I'd still be interested to hear your reasoning.

Thanks.

[mad?]

You have something of a backlog of unsupported assertions and unanswered questions to deal with before you can realistically expect anyone else to deal with theirs.