Grammar School Expansion ?

[tiffinboys]

Good one, catseye. Thank you.

Those who thinks grammars are not good, please don't send your children there. Leave places for those who think otherwise.
No use trying to wind me up.

[Surferfish]

Good one, catseye. Thank you.

Those who thinks grammars are not good, please don't send your children there. Leave places for those who think otherwise.
No use trying to wind me up.

I'm not trying to wind you up. You implied in your previous post that you believed that grammar schools were good both for the children who go there and also for society as a whole. I completely understand and appreciate why they might good for the children who go there, but am genuinely interested to hear why you believe they are good for society as a whole. After you've finished your well-deserved cuppa, obviously...

[tiffinboys]

What I had written was that if some one thinks that grammars are not good for the society as a whole, then they should not send their children to grammars. Vote with your feet. Walk out of grammars.

My view is if the grammars are not good, then these are not bad either for the society. If these provide benefit to the bright children (they have their needs and rights too, just like any other child), then society would benefit as a whole, not be harmed by it.

I remember after one of my very early posts in favour of grammars, some one advised me to put the hard hat on.

Time for another kitkat.

[loopylala]

What I had written was that if some one thinks that grammars are not good for the society as a whole, then they should not send their children to grammars. Vote with your feet. Walk out of grammars.

Why, what will that achieve?

[RedPanda]

I had avoided replying after Tinker's post but seeing as we are still going I just wanted to publicly acknowledge Amber's reply to my post. Thank you Amber. Good points.

@Tiffinboys - Hello again. No need for a hard hat for this... The bright children you refer to (and to which I have some sympathy) will be less likely to come from poorer backgrounds. The data supports this. So in all fairness that needs to be acknowledged particularly if being used as an argument for social mobility/justice.

What advantage does a grammar school (over non-selective school) provide for the 'bright' child? For my own sanity, I did try to find some more recent research on educational outcomes for the individual. The research is in the same state as when I last looked (many years ago) and Amber stated much the same when I initially asked the question. Until there is more sophisticated analysis available we are all just going to have to use our own judgement for that one.

Edited to correct.

[loopylala]

I did try to find some more recent research on educational outcomes for the individual.

I did find some of the points covered in these quite interesting:

https://epi.org.uk/report/grammar-schoo ... -mobility/#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://epi.org.uk/report/grammar-school ... y-options/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RedPanda]

I did try to find some more recent research on educational outcomes for the individual.

I did find some of the points covered in these quite interesting:

https://epi.org.uk/report/grammar-schoo ... -mobility/#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://epi.org.uk/report/grammar-school ... y-options/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks LLL. I did read those. Agree they were interesting. I thought they fudged the analysis a bit by only comparing high quality schools (i.e. those with the best results) but I don't think they could simply compare with all schools either.

[loopylala]

I thought they fudged the analysis a bit by only comparing high quality schools (i.e. those with the best results)

I missed the comment about high quality schools, I only saw the comment about high performing. [ETA]Sorry, I misread your comment but on re reading it, I'm not sure why comparing the top performing non-selective schools with fully selective schools would be an issue, tbh.

I also think there are some interesting points raised here:

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8469" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.ascl.org.uk/help-and-advice ... ility.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.centreforsocialjustice.org. ... Report.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tiffinboys]

I did try to find some more recent research on educational outcomes for the individual.

I did find some of the points covered in these quite interesting:

https://epi.org.uk/report/grammar-schoo ... -mobility/#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://epi.org.uk/report/grammar-school ... y-options/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I admit of not reading the full report, but having only read the key findings, I think the comparison are not apple with apple. I will come back on that later.

I would not fully trust a report against any issue prepared by a think tank allied to any political party. EPI is too closely allied to Liberal Democrats, whose stated policy is to close grammars.

[Amber]

I’m sorry I cannot let that stand. The EPI is categorically not allied to any political party. End of. You have clearly noted that David Laws is the executive director. That is not a role which has anything to do with his former role in the Liberal Democrats. I know this organisation very well and it is strictly non political and the terms of its engagement are non ideological.