Grammar and Faith school expansion.

[tiffinboys]

Yes, I see your point G55 and exactly I am aware that that non-selective get more funding because of more PP and SEN children. So SEN would be assisted by more TAs etc.

Do you feel that out of the 75-80% children that go to non-selectives in Bucks, there wont be chidren who can do three sciences or mfl or other subjects offered by grammars? Do all level 4 (that was what required in old terms) go to grammars and none in non-selectives?

[loopylala]

Do you feel that out of the 75-80% children that go to non-selectives in Bucks, there wont be chidren who can do three sciences or mfl or other subjects offered by grammars?

As Bucks is a fully selective county, if there are large numbers of children who are suited to a Grammar education currently attending secondary moderns, wouldn't it suggest the Grammar system isn't working?

[loopylala]

Do all level 4 (that was what required in old terms) go to grammars and none in non-selectives?

So children gaining L4 are considered so bright they need special provision in the form of a Grammar education? Was this a typo? Did you mean L5 & L6?

[anotherdad]

And this is why debating the issue continually with the same posters doesn't lead anywhere. The systems in use across different counties are complex, multi-faceted and differ from one another, substantially in places. You cannot credibly engage in a debate about something complex when you are not even in possession of some of the basic facts and demonstrate just that by quoting muddled or incorrect statements and statistics or asking for information after confidently asserting something shaky. It's akin to arguing for the relative merits of monetarism whilst simultaneously and frantically flicking through a dummies' guide to economics for information. You will come unstuck. Frequently.

Instead, people revert to the banal and misinformed argument: "You cannot oppose grammar schools if you send your child to one." Presumably because it's easier than actually taking the time to understand how the systems work, the evidence of their successes and failures and why people are engaged in them, sometimes with little choice.

[Guest55]

Yes, I see your point G55 and exactly I am aware that that non-selective get more funding because of more PP and SEN children. So SEN would be assisted by more TAs etc.

Do you feel that out of the 75-80% children that go to non-selectives in Bucks, there wont be chidren who can do three sciences or mfl or other subjects offered by grammars? Do all level 4 (that was what required in old terms) go to grammars and none in non-selectives?

I did see data a few year back that about 10% of students in Uppers had 3 level 5s - so that's about 20 or so if they are distributed evenly [which I'd guess they would not be]. That's not enough for a GCSE group even if every one of those wanted to do triple science or an additional MFL. Saying that some Uppers do offer more options but that is not even across the LA and depends on intake.

[RedPanda]

From the bbc link in the opening post...

The Conservatives also promised during the election campaign to remove the cap on faith-based free schools, which stops them allocating more than 50% of their places on grounds of religion - which would have brought them in line with other faith schools in the state sector.

But the government has ditched this promise - and instead says it will provide funds for local authorities to create a new generation of "voluntary-aided" faith schools.

These will be able to be fully selective on grounds of religion - and the funding for their creation will be taken from the pot of money set for the creation of new free schools.

See what they did there?

More social segregation, definitely the answer to our problems. Not.

[anotherdad]

See what they did there?

More social segregation, definitely the answer to our problems. Not.

Bonkers, isn't it. With all of the religions supposedly promoting tolerance and diversity, I don't understand why any of them would wish to support a school that is exclusive or has discriminatory admissions policies. All that work that successive governments have done to reduce segregation and intolerance is undermined by a rushed-out and ill-considered new policy.

What is one of the "British Values" that the government says that schools must promote?

"Mutual respect for and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs and for those without faith."

How does that fit with allowing schools to be fully selective on grounds of religion? Denying someone a place at a school on their doorstep because they don't attend the right sort of place of worship doesn't sound very tolerant to me. What are these schools and their all-powerful deities afraid of? A little questioning? I would like to think that if I were religious, my conviction and beliefs could stand up to a bit of questioning by children rather than having to avoid those that might dare to think differently.

[Surferfish]

I am opposed to faith schools, but even more than that struggle to understand how they are even allowed to operate like this under the law.

Doesn't accepting (or rejecting) applications from pupils based on their (or more accurately their parents') religious beliefs mean that they are in breach of discrimination laws?

How is it any different in principle from a school stating that they will favour applications from white pupils, for example?

(this is meant as a genuine question rather than being merely rhetorical)

[anotherdad]

I am opposed to faith schools, but even more than that struggle to understand how they are even allowed to operate like this under the law.

Doesn't accepting (or rejecting) applications from pupils based on their (or more accurately their parents') religious beliefs mean that they are in breach of discrimination laws?

How is it any different in principle from a school stating that they will favour applications from white pupils, for example?

(this is meant as a genuine question rather than being merely rhetorical)

Good questions which I have never seen answered satisfactorily. I have come to the conclusion that religion gets a "free pass" to work outside conventional rules when it wishes to do so, yet in one case (Christianity), claims to be the basis of the UK's intrinsic fairness and the foundation of its justice system.

[Guest55]

Most C of E schools do not even have a faith requirement and these schools are often chosen by other faiths because of their ethos. I know that is not the same for Catholic schools but there are fewer of those.