Setting in Grammar schools

[mm23292]

I wholeheartedly agree KB. But these schools are not setting until year 9 in some cases! And Bucks GS take a much wider ability range than the super-selective schools.

I also agree with your comment regards ‘learning’, and knowing how to learn, this is also key priority for us, but given the league table pursuit of grammars in terms of grades, I fear that can’t always be the case, and it is more about getting everyone upto a minimum golden B, or whatever the equivalent is today, rather than focusing on inspiring an inquisitive passion in children who have great mathematical potential.

[Deb70]

In our Bucks GS they set in year 8.
This is because the transfer test isn't a measure of ability in maths. All who qualify begin on an equal footing until they've done a year's worth of work.

[mm23292]

In our Bucks GS they set in year 8.
This is because the transfer test isn't a measure of ability in maths. All who qualify begin on an equal footing until they've done a year's worth of work.

I agree, the 11plus is a highly tutored test for most these days; but there are other valid measures of ability, and I completely disagree that they all start on an equal footing...there will be a huge range of inherent mathematical abilities.

[kenyancowgirl]

I think what Deb70 meant by equal footing is that at Y7 absolutely nobody refers to the 11+ result as everyone in the GSs realise the limitations of the test so set the clock back to zero - the equal footing.

Your DD may be brilliant at maths - but there will be others who are more brilliant - she may be average at modern foreign languages - and may need to work harder at these - she may be lower than average in the sciences - who knows? Primary school is so very different to secondary. You can be a big fish in a small independent but realise that actually that only equates to a small fish in a big secondary.

Schools know this and use their own tests to identify individual strengths and development needs and go from there. She will be stretched - in all subjects - and it will do her good to have to work harder at other subjects she is not so stellar at too.

[Ricky74]

My one son was set in y8 and my other will be from y9 (Bham/Walsall).

Children can move between sets based on performance in tests and class so there are ample chances to move up or down.

Why are you concerned? A child with a lower score on one given day of an 11 plus test isn't necessarily an accurate indicator of their ability.

They're still very young in y7 too.

Sorry, my other child won't be set until year 10.

[mm23292]

Thanks Deb70, I do understand that there will be things she may not be as good at, or as interested in, and yes the big fish in a small pond scenario is quite a common theme at small primary schools. But in terms of objective measurement, where a child has been professionally assessed as being in the top .00 whatever % of the population in terms of ability and attainment, and they are working beyond the norm in their current already extended setting, that’s not a measure as one dimensional as a one cohort, one day test. And 2 years in a single set group, where the aim is to get everyone up to a certain level, I just cannot see how that can be right. If my nephew’s comprehensive could cater for his unusual ability, then you’d certainly expect a broad ability grammar to do the same. The top independents are setting, and both external and internal assessment data is very important in that sense, as you would expect. Perhaps it’s less about fitting in with the crowd, and more about finding your path to shine..
Thanks for all your comments.

[kenyancowgirl]

I’m not sure the “top” independents get it right in terms of grades though. They certainly don’t in our area where the GS consistently out perform all schools (state and independent) in both GCSE and A level. So not setting for the first few years doesn’t harm them.

Independent schools are very aware of their client - the parent - not the child. As the parent pays the bills. So they have to listen/react as a parent would expect them to when faced with reports/assessments etc whereas state schools know they are there for the child and do what is best for them first and foremost. Getting to know a child and maybe encourage them to be fantastic in lots of areas, not just the one that has been preidentified must surely be a better approach as a child matures and develops. And children do naturally develop and plateau - sometimes discovering they are really good at something they previously weren’t and vice verse.

You won’t be the first parent at a GS with their prodigy and you won’t be the last - the GS will make sure she excels in all areas not just one where she is currently ahead. However, if you prefer the independent way of working, I am sure they would be delighted to have your daughter and someone who cannot afford private education would be equally delighted to have the place at the GS that this relinquishes.

[PettswoodFiona]

Another with a DD in a superselective Grammar that doesn’t set in Y7. Some come from independents - so no SAT scores, the pass for the grammar entrance is for VR and NVR - not maths. They roughly set in Y8 and then refine this until start of Y10 - most of the girls are predicted a 7-9 so all high achieving. A small half class might fall outside this and be getting extra support. It is a tough environment to be in where the middle set is predicted an old fashioned A (7 in new money).

[KB]

"And 2 years in a single set group, where the aim is to get everyone up to a certain level,"

This is not the purpose. The teacher will be making sure the basics are secure for all the pupils as without them there can be problems later ( and even a child who seems to be doing well may have some 'holes') but beyond this they will be ensuring each child is working to a level appropriate to their capabilities and then stretching them ( sideways or upwards as appropriate).

We experienced many good maths teachers at both primary and secondary schools who were able to support and encourage 'gifted' mathematicians within mixed ability classes.

Besides which, I support other posts which have explained why setting in year 7 would be an inexact process so would not achieve your aim of having all those with most natural ability in the top set.

I also agree that the move to secondary school is challenging for all children so frankly if a pupil 'coasts' in one subject for a few months it is not necessarily a bad thing. It may release capacity to deal with all the other demands being made.

One thing I have learned from seeing my DCs through the education system ( by various routes) is that its a marathon not a sprint. Their personal development and mental health are as important as academic excellence. If they fail to achieve stellar grades as some point this can be rectified much more easily. So I would choose the school that you believe best suits your child overall and will support them as they move into young adulthood.

[mm23292]

I’m not sure the “top” independents get it right in terms of grades though. They certainly don’t in our area where the GS consistently out perform all schools (state and independent) in both GCSE and A level. So not setting for the first few years doesn’t harm them.

Independent schools are very aware of their client - the parent - not the child. As the parent pays the bills. So they have to listen/react as a parent would expect them to when faced with reports/assessments etc whereas state schools know they are there for the child and do what is best for them first and foremost. Getting to know a child and maybe encourage them to be fantastic in lots of areas, not just the one that has been preidentified must surely be a better approach as a child matures and develops. And children do naturally develop and plateau - sometimes discovering they are really good at something they previously weren’t and vice verse.

You won’t be the first parent at a GS with their prodigy and you won’t be the last - the GS will make sure she excels in all areas not just one where she is currently ahead. However, if you prefer the independent way of working, I am sure they would be delighted to have your daughter and someone who cannot afford private education would be equally delighted to have the place at the GS that this relinquishes.

Our experience with state schools this far, has certainly not been the all embracing, holistic approach suggested here, and I’m not sure why you think that independent schools are only there to serve the parents and not the child. Our eldest found her path at her school, had help for issues that had previously been overlooked at state school, and had the passion for her current uni course ignited, in a subject area we had never envisaged. In fact we would never have considered the independent sector upto that point, as we were not in a position to afford it either.
Aside from that, this was not supposed to be a post about private versus state, and the fact that there are plenty who would appreciate our GS place if we decide to remortgage our modest home to go private instead, it was simply to discuss why grammar schools don’t set, and of course be helpfully reminded, that there are other ‘prodigies’ out there who will be treated the same.
All in all, I understand what is being said, and yes GS get good overall results one way or another with this approach, so I’m sure it works for the most part! Thank you