Late dyslexia diagnosis in Yr 6 - what do we do?

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poppit
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:15 pm
Location: Birmingham

Re: Late dyslexia diagnosis in Yr 6 - what do we do?

Post by poppit »

Hi Mystery

Thanks for taking the time to write so much :) I'll take each of your points in turn.
There are children at the school I help at who are not halfway through the book even in year 6 because they do not do the sessions daily at school - more like once a week. You are adminstering the book correctly and it's great you are both finding the time to do it daily and get on with it, despite the difficulties from time to time.
Wow, that is so encouraging, I know that when I tell my Y2 son that he will be very impressed with the idea that he is progressing relatively quickly. Although it is a bit of battle of wills sometimes, we have seen his reading improve steadily which makes him feel good (Biff, Chip etc. didn't do that for him ) and I want to keep up the momentum so that he continues to build good feelings about his reading ability, which hopefully will build his self-confidence so he will tackle new things more readily.
I could place a bet with you that your son is probably one of the best, if not the best, in the class now at decoding an unknown word
I hadn't thought it in that way before. Since my son was identified as having learning difficulties I have been reading about synthetic phonics and I can now see how much Biff & Chip books rely on readers remembering stock phrases ("suddenly the magic key began to glow" and "Oh no!, said Mum." are two that spring to mind!) and guessing using the pictures as clues is encouraged, rather than focusing on building rock solid de-coding skills. At the weekend my son was reading a Lego book and the characters have weird names, I could see 'Ninjago' and 'Spinjitzu' coming up and got ready to help him, but without hesitation he got both words right! My DH and I just looked at each other open mouthed and smiling (probably looked like gurning come to think about it!), while he carried on reading, happily oblivious of a proud parental moment! :D I guess those Lego names are similar to the nonsense polynons in Toe-by-Toe, so he just took them in his stride and decoded them.
Do you encounter any conflict with school methods? I asked my children the other day how they would read a new word they had not seen before and they each said something that definitely came from school. The older one talked about reading the sentence several times in order to work out what words might fit in the "gap", and the other one talked about finding words within words. Fortunately, they don't read much at school (!) so I don't think they practise these methods very often; I really don't like them as methods.
Not really, I think that the school just expected him to work out how to decode as a result of reading Biff & Chip. Their methods have been mixed,
* to start with Letterland with its simple individual letter sounds,
* then in Y1 they did work on some simple sounds ch, ai, ea (it looked like the flash cards were extracted from the Jolly Phonics system) - but to me some of these sounds were hard to work out because of the lack of a consonant e.g. ai, ea. This approach was mixed with ORT reading books.
Late last year the Ed Pysch said that he could only decode using individual letter sounds e.g. ah, buh, kuh. So he just didn't have a method of dealing with more complex words. One of the things that we learnt through Toe-by-Toe which moved him forward, is to start with the last syllable of words he is finding tricky e.g. brake would be read as 'ake' first then the 'br' would be added in front and the sounds blended, without this he would probably pronounce it as 'krake'. He has moved beyond this approach now, he can start at the beginning of a word and breaks it down into units of sound and then blend them.
I think your way of keeping your son on track is a good one. I think my daughter who had to fight a lot of fear to learn to swim and then practice more than others likes to be reminded of that, and she is better for the experience I think as she understands you have to try hard and practice with things that don't come easily, and also get past your irrational fears.
Thank you. This is work in progress, but because much of what he has to learn won't come easily to him, I want him to know that he absolutely can do it, he is bright, it just takes perseverance, the right coaching (I have to get my bit right too!), a good attitude, practice and courage to overcome fears. It will take time, but he doesn't need to limit himself. He sometimes says it is unfair that he has to overlearn things to make them stick in his memory.
If you feel that Toe by Toe has done its job i.e. sorted out b d confusion (for reading) and trained him in faithfully decoding a word phonically from beginning to end, then you could always try another "programme" which includes decodable reading books - but still synthetic phonic based until you have worked your way through all the GPCs. He could then learn the phonics he hasn't yet covered through reading some enjoyable stories.
Oooh what a deliciously fabulous idea! I'll definitely try that. I'll google "decodable reading books" to see what I can find. Are there any decodable reading books that you would recommend?
A good set of decodable readers would introduce all these different possibilities whilst maintaining his interest via the reading matter. It would also be advisable to include some writing of words which include the new GPC - let's say you were learning ai as in rain - it would be good to write out lots of words using this kind of ai, and also to point out this does not come at the end of a word stem in English, whereas ay does, IYSWIM.
Great tip! Writing and spelling are very difficult for him, so this would be a good way to link them to his improved reading skills. TBH I have been putting off the writing side because that really is a big battle zone because he hates getting things wrong and he finds it so hard it upsets him. But on reflection I think that now I should take my courage in my hands and start to do some gentle work on that area as well. Thanks for the nudge. :)
t's all very interesting, I think you are doing the right thing by making it "non-negotiable" and letting your son know that he can do it. Really learning to read is no different from any other skill - it requires good teaching and practice, and some people need more practice than others, and that is not in any way connected with IQ.
Making it part of our daily routine, definitely helps him to accept it, to start with getting him to sit down with me could be tricky, now that is pretty easy :D - it is our time together. Some days he stays on task and it is dreamily easy, but those days are rare; sometimes he wants a chat after every word :|
You can only hope that once he has reached the skill level to easily read books that he really wants to read that he will do so of his own accord - however there are plenty of "can read, won't read" children out there, and I feel it's better than "can't read, won't read". If he does not become a book lover longer term you will never know the reasons why, and chances are it has nothing to do with dyslexia, teaching methods, the struggle to learn etc ......... it's just one of those mysterious things.
There are good signs on this front, he is starting to read anything that crosses his path; cereal boxes, road signs and the other day he picked up a book and read it to his younger cousin (his idea :shock: :D )

Thanks for sharing you knowledge.

poppit
mystery
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Re: Late dyslexia diagnosis in Yr 6 - what do we do?

Post by mystery »

Thanks for replying Poppit. Will reply again later this week with some decodable reading books that might be of interest. He might be past that stage though. Can you give me some idea how far he is through with all the various graphemes and their possible pronunciations ......... if that question makes sense?
poppit
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:15 pm
Location: Birmingham

Re: Late dyslexia diagnosis in Yr 6 - what do we do?

Post by poppit »

Hi Mystery

Thanks for offering to look into this. We are now on page 149 of Toe by Toe.

Thanks again
poppit
Harrysmum
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Re: Late dyslexia diagnosis in Yr 6 - what do we do?

Post by Harrysmum »

I've just bought toe by toe, how are you finding it?
poppit
Posts: 196
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Location: Birmingham

Re: Late dyslexia diagnosis in Yr 6 - what do we do?

Post by poppit »

Hello Harrysmum,

We are finding it very worthwhile, we started on the 2nd January and do something from it everyday, the length of the sessions varies, but we do it. It has been transformational for us, now my son can read his normal school books fluently and even with good expression, it is a joy to listen to. It you look back through this thread I have posted a some detailed notes describing how it has been for us.

Why did you choose Toe by Toe? How far have you got?

poppit
mystery
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Re: Late dyslexia diagnosis in Yr 6 - what do we do?

Post by mystery »

Yes I would be interested in your reflections on it too. Poppit I do still intend to reply ....... just a bit busy on other stuff at the moment. In the meantime, take a look on the schemes mentioned on Susan Godsland's dyslexia website, and maybe ask for some suggestions on the Reading Reform Foundation website.

Also TES primary forum may be of help to you; make it clear you are looking for a decodable readers though.

I'm wondering though from what you say if you might be beyond the end now of decodable reading schemes. What kind of things is he reading now?
poppit
Posts: 196
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Location: Birmingham

Re: Late dyslexia diagnosis in Yr 6 - what do we do?

Post by poppit »

Hi Mystery

I completely empathise with your busy life. Mine is often like that too, when I can't fit anything else in. All your suggestions are welcome and I am happy to wait for a time which is convenient for you.

He reads all sorts of things, today it was the information leaflet about the Rotten Romans from a jigsaw puzzle, which he got 90% right. He is a long way through Stage 8 ORT and his new school has put him on New Way (Blue Band) which he finds pretty straight forward.

Warmest regards
poppit
mystery
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Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:56 pm

Re: Late dyslexia diagnosis in Yr 6 - what do we do?

Post by mystery »

OK, just looking at the facts so far - page 149 of Toe by Toe or thereabouts, Blue level of New Way (used to be called Gay Way apparently) and stage 8 of ORT, and your son is in year 2. If he is reading the stage 8 ORT books relatively easily then he must be reading at least at his chronological age I am guessing, unless he is old for the year?

OK, now I'm a rebel parent, so I would dump ORT for the timebeing (unless it is one of their newer phonics-based schemes) and spend more time on a phonics based reading scheme. New Way might be the answer - but does it seem any good to you? I'm afraid it is not one that I know. It's quite old and I think the newer synthetic phonic schemes have had quite a bit of good thinking put into them - but it might be great.

The trouble is marrying all these different schemes together and starting at the right point within a phonics reading scheme because they all introduce the different grapheme-phoneme correspondences (GPCs) at different points. Ideally, for the least muddlement, you want your son to be reading books which use the GPCs he has learned well so far, and then that introduce new ones slowly and steadily.

The cheapest scheme I have come across to purchase for home use is Read Write Inc because you buy the storybooks in black and white. The thing I don't know is (a) whether your son would enjoy the stories, or (b) at which point he should start.

The other thing is that I don't think it covers absolutely all GPCs in the storybooks, but you will find that Toe by Toe is pretty thorough I think. The thing Toe by Toe lacks is an alphabetic code chart so you can see where you have got to, and appreciate the alternative spellings for the same sounds, and the different sounds for the same spellings if you see what I mean. You could try the Phonics International website for a free code chart to see what I am talking about.

There is a Read Write Inc phonics handbook with a placement chart - but the handbook costs about £20. If your school has it, you might be able to photocopy it and test your child at home - then you could see where to start with the reading books.

If you were happy to waste a bit of money, I think you could start purchase the storybooks sets 4 to 7, and also the speed sound cards sets 2 and 3 (make sure you get the small ones for home use, they are much cheaper). You might also find the later stages of OUP Songbirds useful - but each book introduces a fair number of new GPCs so you want to be at the "right point" for each book.

Otherwise take a look at Dandelion and Talisman readers, and any others you see suggested on the dyslexia website I mentioned further back in this thread.

When your son is reading new words in Toe by Toe (both real and nonsense ones) does he have to sound them out (either out loud or in his head) before saying the whole word?
mystery
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Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:56 pm

Re: Late dyslexia diagnosis in Yr 6 - what do we do?

Post by mystery »

You could also take a look at Piper Books - they look relatively good value too and I think they might send you appro copies. I am sure you could send the owner some queries and you would receive help finding an appropriate starting point.
Good luck!
P.S. It sounds like you are doing extremely well - I presume your son is feeling well-placed in his year 2 class reading-wise now is he?
poppit
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:15 pm
Location: Birmingham

Re: Late dyslexia diagnosis in Yr 6 - what do we do?

Post by poppit »

Wow Mystery that is a lot of good info!
OK, just looking at the facts so far - page 149 of Toe by Toe or thereabouts, Blue level of New Way (used to be called Gay Way apparently) and stage 8 of ORT, and your son is in year 2. If he is reading the stage 8 ORT books relatively easily then he must be reading at least at his chronological age I am guessing, unless he is old for the year?
Even the New Way website doesn't explain the different levels within their reading scheme and no amount of googling has revealed the answer. He is October born, so pretty much one of the oldest in Y2. His reading and his confidence in his reading has improved out of all recognition since the New Year, so he has come from well behind to the standard he is now quite quickly. You are right he is now roughly his correct reading age, which in itself is cause for celebration :) Last year his poor reading impacted other areas too he couldn't read worksheets very well, so he didn't want to do them.
I would dump ORT for the timebeing (unless it is one of their newer phonics-based schemes) and spend more time on a phonics based reading scheme. New Way might be the answer - but does it seem any good to you? I'm afraid it is not one that I know. It's quite old and I think the newer synthetic phonic schemes have had quite a bit of good thinking put into them - but it might be great.
By luck his new school moved him off ORT (it was the old fashioned version), but I'm not sure that New Way is the answer. On the positive side he is enjoying reading the books easily, but I am not convinced that they are solidly phonics based. I will ask his new teacher about whether they have any phonics based reading schemes he could use to work in harmony with the Toe by Toe work we are doing.
he thing Toe by Toe lacks is an alphabetic code chart so you can see where you have got to, and appreciate the alternative spellings for the same sounds, and the different sounds for the same spellings if you see what I mean. You could try the Phonics International website for a free code chart to see what I am talking about.
Yes I know exactly what you mean, I was looking at it last night - marvelling at how any of us learn to read!

I'll check out your various suggestions.
When your son is reading new words in Toe by Toe (both real and nonsense ones) does he have to sound them out (either out loud or in his head) before saying the whole word?
It varies, if he is finding a new sound difficult ('oa' at the moment) he needs to sound out the whole word before blending it. If it is medium hard he does it in his head, if it is truly hard it is done out loud, sometimes he will invent sounds within words that aren't there. On other occasions he can just read words containing new sounds.

Thanks for your help and encouragement, as ever you have given me much to think about and act on.

Warm regards
poppit
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