Where do I start?
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Re: Where do I start?
Yes and Kipper, Chip, Floppy ORT books are all sight word books too. They are not using the "gold standard" method for teaching a child with literacy difficulties of any shape or form. They are not teaching your son to read. Please take a look back at my earlier posts and you'll see my point about systematic synthetic phonics.
Sorry I talked about purple RWI books and an assessment in the phonics handbook at one point ......... I was thinking you had that scheme but I was jumping the gun. I was waiting for you to tell me something about what your son can do reading-wise before I suggested something ---- but you are still confusing me. I don't know what he can read, or if he knows any very basic phonics, or if he can sound out or blend a word, or anything. Do you know? I think your school is not teaching him to read. There's a very high chance he can learn to read but the longer you baffle him with trying to learn whole words from memory, the harder the job will become it would seem as he has not found that method any help yet.
Do read some of the things I've suggested, and Google a bit. There's a whole world on learning to read that you have missed out on, which might make a big difference - you won't know until you try.
Sorry I talked about purple RWI books and an assessment in the phonics handbook at one point ......... I was thinking you had that scheme but I was jumping the gun. I was waiting for you to tell me something about what your son can do reading-wise before I suggested something ---- but you are still confusing me. I don't know what he can read, or if he knows any very basic phonics, or if he can sound out or blend a word, or anything. Do you know? I think your school is not teaching him to read. There's a very high chance he can learn to read but the longer you baffle him with trying to learn whole words from memory, the harder the job will become it would seem as he has not found that method any help yet.
Do read some of the things I've suggested, and Google a bit. There's a whole world on learning to read that you have missed out on, which might make a big difference - you won't know until you try.
Re: Where do I start?
Hi, DM. Sorry, have been reading this thread and not sure I can contribute but might try with a bit more information as I have worked in a special school, and in a unit for children with speech and language difficulties. Does he have a specific learning difficulty which is a barrier to his learning to read, write and spell? Synthetic phonics will not work for all children, even in mainstream settings, and some children loathe it and switch off. Children with a hearing or a language processing disorder will often struggle very badly with a phonics based approach too.
What is his oral language like, and his receptive language?
Ok,blushes, I have now read back through the entire thread, sorry, should have done that to start with.
I think, personally, that it is highly unlikely that a synthetic phonics approach would work with your son. I am not keen on it anyway, tbh, but with the range of difficulties he has, I think he probably wonders what on earth is going on if someone asks him to 'blend' words. It sounds to me as though the school is struggling to come up with something and I wonder how detailed his IEP is? Is there a specialist language teacher at the school? If not, can you push for one to come in and assess him? I think that you need proper specialist help and not amateurs like me - it is such a complex area. It is great that your son enjoys make believe and magic and that might be a way in. If he can't hear rhyme, find some poems and fun stuff and do it over and over and maybe he will. (Roald Dahl's Revolting Rhymes, that kind of thing). Use his own words when he is drawing and write little captions underneath - perhaps he hasn't really got the hang of the connection between oral and written language - you know, why bother to write? Why bother to read? Look at his favourite food packets, chocolate bars, follow a recipe together - let's see what we have to do next - that kind of thing...anything he is interested in. I know this is the exact opposite of the approach mystery is suggesting but I think you have to start with the child and give him a reason to want to read and write. A note to dad, to granny, a story for his little brother- think outside the box.
Sorry, rambling. And haven't met him, obviously, so might have this totally wrong - apologies if so.
What is his oral language like, and his receptive language?
Ok,blushes, I have now read back through the entire thread, sorry, should have done that to start with.
I think, personally, that it is highly unlikely that a synthetic phonics approach would work with your son. I am not keen on it anyway, tbh, but with the range of difficulties he has, I think he probably wonders what on earth is going on if someone asks him to 'blend' words. It sounds to me as though the school is struggling to come up with something and I wonder how detailed his IEP is? Is there a specialist language teacher at the school? If not, can you push for one to come in and assess him? I think that you need proper specialist help and not amateurs like me - it is such a complex area. It is great that your son enjoys make believe and magic and that might be a way in. If he can't hear rhyme, find some poems and fun stuff and do it over and over and maybe he will. (Roald Dahl's Revolting Rhymes, that kind of thing). Use his own words when he is drawing and write little captions underneath - perhaps he hasn't really got the hang of the connection between oral and written language - you know, why bother to write? Why bother to read? Look at his favourite food packets, chocolate bars, follow a recipe together - let's see what we have to do next - that kind of thing...anything he is interested in. I know this is the exact opposite of the approach mystery is suggesting but I think you have to start with the child and give him a reason to want to read and write. A note to dad, to granny, a story for his little brother- think outside the box.
Sorry, rambling. And haven't met him, obviously, so might have this totally wrong - apologies if so.
Re: Where do I start?
I don't think that anyone would just ask him to "blend" words and look at the puzzlement on this face. They would teach him to blend words - first just by listening to segemented words and then when he knew enough GPCs to read a word, by reading a simple word such as "rug" by stating the sounds of each individual letter from left to right and then running them together into the word rug. Not the best word to start with I know but just one that came to mind.
Amber, have you taught children (with literacy difficulties) to learn to read from scratch to reasonable proficiency with the method you are suggesting? I've tried it and it doesn't work for me. Maybe I was doing it incorrectly in some way but it just didn't cut the mustard for me. Could have gone on for years and got nowhere and then decided the children were not capable of learning to read when they were.
There are a very tiny percentage of people who cannot learn to blend - but it is very low. The proportion of people who get confused by trying to learn whole words and then taking a guess at each new word they come across is much higher.
Of course some of us did learn to read just by absorbing the print around us, following mother's finger on the page as she read etc etc ....... but if this method were going to work it would probably have started to click in some way for this young man of 13 already but it hasn't.
It sounds like a fabulous idea because it sounds so effortless and thrilling........ in reality you are not going to get anywhere without quite a bit of hard work to get stuff into long term memory. However, if you have a logical approach to learning to read it cuts the memory load if that is the issue, whereas learning loads of words by sight (almost a logographic method like learning thousands of Chinese characters which represent words) is quite some memory feat even for the best of us.
The kind of natural approach suggested by Amber works for a lot of people because in the end they deduce the patterns etc for themselves, but for someone who doesn't or will take a long time to do so, it's suicidal. A well thought out programme with stats to show that it has worked with a high percentage of students is going to be a safer bet when time is running out to learn to read as it is for this young man.
Good luck in your researches Disney-Mum. It's really not straightforward, and the trouble is that each expert you find will have a very different view point, very different background, very different training. You need to find out for yourself what you think will work ...... there's plenty of research to show that a very good systematic phonics programme with accompanying stories that interest your son will work. But it won't be effortless. It sounds as though from the age of 5 your son has just been subjected to try and learn whole words again and again.
Amber, have you taught children (with literacy difficulties) to learn to read from scratch to reasonable proficiency with the method you are suggesting? I've tried it and it doesn't work for me. Maybe I was doing it incorrectly in some way but it just didn't cut the mustard for me. Could have gone on for years and got nowhere and then decided the children were not capable of learning to read when they were.
There are a very tiny percentage of people who cannot learn to blend - but it is very low. The proportion of people who get confused by trying to learn whole words and then taking a guess at each new word they come across is much higher.
Of course some of us did learn to read just by absorbing the print around us, following mother's finger on the page as she read etc etc ....... but if this method were going to work it would probably have started to click in some way for this young man of 13 already but it hasn't.
It sounds like a fabulous idea because it sounds so effortless and thrilling........ in reality you are not going to get anywhere without quite a bit of hard work to get stuff into long term memory. However, if you have a logical approach to learning to read it cuts the memory load if that is the issue, whereas learning loads of words by sight (almost a logographic method like learning thousands of Chinese characters which represent words) is quite some memory feat even for the best of us.
The kind of natural approach suggested by Amber works for a lot of people because in the end they deduce the patterns etc for themselves, but for someone who doesn't or will take a long time to do so, it's suicidal. A well thought out programme with stats to show that it has worked with a high percentage of students is going to be a safer bet when time is running out to learn to read as it is for this young man.
Good luck in your researches Disney-Mum. It's really not straightforward, and the trouble is that each expert you find will have a very different view point, very different background, very different training. You need to find out for yourself what you think will work ...... there's plenty of research to show that a very good systematic phonics programme with accompanying stories that interest your son will work. But it won't be effortless. It sounds as though from the age of 5 your son has just been subjected to try and learn whole words again and again.
Re: Where do I start?
Mystery, I don't think this is the right place to have another go at me and my ideas. I was just trying to offer another angle to Disney Mum, whose son has a complex set of difficulties associated with ASD and other developmental issues. It appears to me that anything which would help him make a solid link between oral and written language would be a good start. I don't like the tone of 'Amber, have you actually....?'. There is no need for it and it doesn't help anyone. I am not setting myself up as any kind of expert and do not pretend to have the answers here, only ideas, which seem appropriate to share in this context. I have not claimed this would lead to this DS learning to read 'fluently', but DM has asked for ideas and I was sharing mine, based on experience and concern. That is all.
I have worked with children with profound and mild autism, and with Aspergers, and with language difficulties associated with ASD. Some of them have not learned to read, some have read fluently and some have learned to 'get by'. I don't think DM is interested in my mounting a robust defence of 'my' methods, but I would say that each and every one of these children learned in a different way, and phonics didn't play a huge part for any of them in the early stages. For children who have not understood why people might want to write, teaching them letter sounds might be fun for a while, but they won't necessarily see the point of it. That is why I asked about his oral and receptive language.
Disney Mum - I wish you well. I don't want to turn your thread into a tit for tat with another poster about methods...I would stick to my advice to lean on your son's school a little to try and get some specialist help. I imagine your son has had a very thorough Ed Psych assessment, which maybe would help to give pointers to where specific difficulties lie. I can't do much else than offer best wishes to you both.
I have worked with children with profound and mild autism, and with Aspergers, and with language difficulties associated with ASD. Some of them have not learned to read, some have read fluently and some have learned to 'get by'. I don't think DM is interested in my mounting a robust defence of 'my' methods, but I would say that each and every one of these children learned in a different way, and phonics didn't play a huge part for any of them in the early stages. For children who have not understood why people might want to write, teaching them letter sounds might be fun for a while, but they won't necessarily see the point of it. That is why I asked about his oral and receptive language.
Disney Mum - I wish you well. I don't want to turn your thread into a tit for tat with another poster about methods...I would stick to my advice to lean on your son's school a little to try and get some specialist help. I imagine your son has had a very thorough Ed Psych assessment, which maybe would help to give pointers to where specific difficulties lie. I can't do much else than offer best wishes to you both.
Last edited by Amber on Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Disney-Mum
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Re: Where do I start?
eek - I have just come onto computer so missed the earlier messages.....
Please don't get upset about all this, anyone. ALL ideas are valid, and Amber, I think you are correct, Phonics don't work for my boy. RE: Ed PSYCH - that would be lovely, haha! Once they get their statement you find the 'professionals' back out and leave it to the schools. He was in Mainstream til high school. Many of the ideas (drawing comics, finding something he WANTS to read, etc) have been tried. But they do always go back to the Phonics way of learning, and he visually switches off.
At Pre-school age he was doagnosed with Verbal Dyspraxia, which moved onto Other speech and language disorders as he got older. He was originally in a unit for speech and language until y3 when he was moved to mainstream school (not because he was capable, but because the unit only ran for infant ages). He received his diagnosis for Autism at age 7, along with complex profound and multiple learning difficulties - but never anything specific. The Autism shouldn't stop him reading, so it must be the other issues. He has been diagnosed with approx 15 different conditions over the years, and they all interact with eachother...I guess its like a spiders web!
Mystery, you hit the nail ont he head when you said "each expert you find will have a very different view point, very different background, very different training." - it really doesn't help when he is subjected to a differnt teacher every term, and also, the professionals outside of school seem to change regularly.
I think the next step will be to get more forceful with the school, and find a program that I can work on at home in conjuction with the school.
THANK YOU everyone for your ideas and support. I have written a long list of ALL the ideas and suggestions, and will try to come up with something appropriate.
Oh, I forgot to say, his receptive/communicative language depends on how awake he is. Sometimes you can get a bit of a converstaion out of him, and sometimes not. His sentence building isn't correct, he will say 'I did got a apple' - tenses and rhymes confuse him - he doesn't understand today, yesterday, tomorrow - its one more sleep..
Eeek - must go,
Thanks again everyone.
x
Please don't get upset about all this, anyone. ALL ideas are valid, and Amber, I think you are correct, Phonics don't work for my boy. RE: Ed PSYCH - that would be lovely, haha! Once they get their statement you find the 'professionals' back out and leave it to the schools. He was in Mainstream til high school. Many of the ideas (drawing comics, finding something he WANTS to read, etc) have been tried. But they do always go back to the Phonics way of learning, and he visually switches off.
At Pre-school age he was doagnosed with Verbal Dyspraxia, which moved onto Other speech and language disorders as he got older. He was originally in a unit for speech and language until y3 when he was moved to mainstream school (not because he was capable, but because the unit only ran for infant ages). He received his diagnosis for Autism at age 7, along with complex profound and multiple learning difficulties - but never anything specific. The Autism shouldn't stop him reading, so it must be the other issues. He has been diagnosed with approx 15 different conditions over the years, and they all interact with eachother...I guess its like a spiders web!
Mystery, you hit the nail ont he head when you said "each expert you find will have a very different view point, very different background, very different training." - it really doesn't help when he is subjected to a differnt teacher every term, and also, the professionals outside of school seem to change regularly.
I think the next step will be to get more forceful with the school, and find a program that I can work on at home in conjuction with the school.
THANK YOU everyone for your ideas and support. I have written a long list of ALL the ideas and suggestions, and will try to come up with something appropriate.
Oh, I forgot to say, his receptive/communicative language depends on how awake he is. Sometimes you can get a bit of a converstaion out of him, and sometimes not. His sentence building isn't correct, he will say 'I did got a apple' - tenses and rhymes confuse him - he doesn't understand today, yesterday, tomorrow - its one more sleep..
Eeek - must go,
Thanks again everyone.
x
Re: Where do I start?
Hi Amber, I didn't use the word actually. I just asked. I was swapping experiences as I've tried it both ways, but not with children with profound difficulties which this young man may have. Children with the most profound difficulties that many special schools have failed with do get taught successfully at home by parents one to one.
I am still not sure that Disney-mum's son has been taught thoroughly by phonics. The examples she has given so far of spelling work, word recognition tasks and books sent home by the school are a sight-word approach, nothing more, nothing less. Also none of the terminology that Disney-Mum uses are of a parent who has been shown at school how to use a successful programme / method whatever you like to call it that school and home single-mindedly work on together.
I think it is possible that thorough synthetic phonics could be a new angle. I should be able to say that on here too without being told it's not the place for a debate Amber.
Yes, it does sound as though his language requires development too - but this is kind of a separate issue. Children can learn to read without having fully correct grammar or a grasp of concepts. A lot of these things will actually be improved through reading too. If he carries on throughout life not reading it is a lost sphere in which to further develop his language. Correct grammar and concepts of time are not a pre-requisite for reading. He will be able to understand and enjoy the right books and stories. Disney-Mum has said that his book interests fall approximately in line with a typical 8 year old boy.
I am still not sure that Disney-mum's son has been taught thoroughly by phonics. The examples she has given so far of spelling work, word recognition tasks and books sent home by the school are a sight-word approach, nothing more, nothing less. Also none of the terminology that Disney-Mum uses are of a parent who has been shown at school how to use a successful programme / method whatever you like to call it that school and home single-mindedly work on together.
I think it is possible that thorough synthetic phonics could be a new angle. I should be able to say that on here too without being told it's not the place for a debate Amber.
Yes, it does sound as though his language requires development too - but this is kind of a separate issue. Children can learn to read without having fully correct grammar or a grasp of concepts. A lot of these things will actually be improved through reading too. If he carries on throughout life not reading it is a lost sphere in which to further develop his language. Correct grammar and concepts of time are not a pre-requisite for reading. He will be able to understand and enjoy the right books and stories. Disney-Mum has said that his book interests fall approximately in line with a typical 8 year old boy.
Re: Where do I start?
Oh DM, I do feel for you. I worked part time in a school for children with with cognitive disorders until last year. In one small class of 7, we ranged from entirely non-verbal (visually and hearing impaired, with ASD) to fluently reading and articulate; most somewhere in the middle but entirely, entirely different from one another (one tube fed, wheelchair user; one 'classically' autistic, etc). Most teachers there had backgrounds similar to myself (primary trained, a few extra SEN training days) and had pretty much picked it up as they went along. The TAs were just lovely, kind, well meaning individuals trying, like the rest of us, to make a difference. But it is so hard!. Because all these children had totally different needs. For example, we used sign language in the class because some of the children couldn't speak. But for the ones who could, sign language was performing a different function from those who could. We used set routines, songs the children knew to introduce each activity etc, because some of our ASD children needed the reassurance of knowing things wouldn't change. But for others, this wasn't really necessary. What I am trying to say is that staff working at the profound end of special needs are not, perhaps, as 'expert' as you might hope. I was certainly shocked myself at how much responsibility I, and others like me, suddenly had. A close friend of mine worked at a different school with older children. She was also mainstream trained and was thrown straight into a class of 14 year olds. She left as soon as she could because she felt unable to give them what they needed.
In short, the sector is, I think, staffed by professionals, who nonetheless might not really understand any one child's complex needs. I think this is a travesty really and takes advantage of the parents of such children who often have to fight for every last thing - the right wheelchair, some help at home with a child who screams through the night, specialised transport. Often (not always, I know this) such parents are so grateful to get a place at a special school which seems to cater for their child, that they are really in no position to question what is going on...especially when staff are clearly dedicated and doing their utmost.
The answer, as ever, is money. To train a teacher to the standard needed, and to retain that teacher, costs far more than drafting in people like me - jack of all trades, willing to try, but ultimately not what a child needs. Sadly, like the elderly, the disabled and less able are disenfranchised in our society and the role of grateful victim foisted on them when any service, even if inadequate, is offered. It is an indictment on our society that we can't do better for children like your son, DM. I really wish I could help.
In short, the sector is, I think, staffed by professionals, who nonetheless might not really understand any one child's complex needs. I think this is a travesty really and takes advantage of the parents of such children who often have to fight for every last thing - the right wheelchair, some help at home with a child who screams through the night, specialised transport. Often (not always, I know this) such parents are so grateful to get a place at a special school which seems to cater for their child, that they are really in no position to question what is going on...especially when staff are clearly dedicated and doing their utmost.
The answer, as ever, is money. To train a teacher to the standard needed, and to retain that teacher, costs far more than drafting in people like me - jack of all trades, willing to try, but ultimately not what a child needs. Sadly, like the elderly, the disabled and less able are disenfranchised in our society and the role of grateful victim foisted on them when any service, even if inadequate, is offered. It is an indictment on our society that we can't do better for children like your son, DM. I really wish I could help.
Re: Where do I start?
I agree. And it happens in all sectors of education, and with all types of children. However, quite often the answer is not entirely money, but knowledge and the time to persist. There are plenty of people who are happy to relieve you of money for all kinds of poor tutoring or therapies that are most unlikely to work.
Most children with some kind of learning difficulty are going to need a lot of well-focussed practice to achieve the same thing fluently as a child who does not have these difficulties, but they could quite well get to the same endpoint ultimately. A child in a special school is perhaps no more likely to learn to read there as in a mainstream school - perhaps less so for the reasons that both Amber and Disney Mum have pointed out.
It can take a good 1 hour per day or more, of intensive, well designed, one to one tuition to start to make some real progress with individuals with reading difficulties. Most schools, in any sector, cannot provide this. This is why by secondary age most school are giving up and going for the "get by" without reading approach rather than really teaching children to read.
Most children with some kind of learning difficulty are going to need a lot of well-focussed practice to achieve the same thing fluently as a child who does not have these difficulties, but they could quite well get to the same endpoint ultimately. A child in a special school is perhaps no more likely to learn to read there as in a mainstream school - perhaps less so for the reasons that both Amber and Disney Mum have pointed out.
It can take a good 1 hour per day or more, of intensive, well designed, one to one tuition to start to make some real progress with individuals with reading difficulties. Most schools, in any sector, cannot provide this. This is why by secondary age most school are giving up and going for the "get by" without reading approach rather than really teaching children to read.
Re: Where do I start?
Try reading Mona McNee's story - google it. I'm not suggesting you follow her method - there are far better designed programmes now, but she got there herself with her Down's son where a special school failed.
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Disney-Mum
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Re: Where do I start?
I have just re-read my last post and noticed the amount of mistakes I made! It was a rush post before we ran off for my youngest's LAST 11+ (all done now!!).
I have just googled Mona McNee and there is a lot about her, so I am going to make a cup of tea and get on to it.
I am not 100% sure of all the ways the schools have tried to teach reading in the past (the terminology) - it has confused me no end. I feel like I'm falling off a roundabout. I need to sit down with all his past school files and see whats what. I do think it will make me cry, because I already know I will find a similar standard all through his school education. It will be a good report to hand over on Tuesday though (school meeting finally confirmed with a time!) Despite all his problems, I am still confident if he learns to read it could open up doors for him in later life.
Mystery - its interesting that you mention his lack of comprehension shouldn't interfere with the reading side. Thats something I always just presumed was a 'given' - Thats deffinately something to think about.
Amber, his school sounds very similar to the school you have taught in. There are a vast range of difficulties between all the children in his class (a small number of pupils). His classroom seems to be mainly Autistic Spectrum and Downs Syndrome. The school does have more severely physically/mentally disabled pupils also, but they are in small groups together also. I have nothing but respect for the people who support and work with these children, it is a hard thing to do. Sometimes as a parent you don't want to say too much at the school about the education side because they are doing such a wonderful job. But, my heart is saying its time to step up and get forceful about it...I struggle with things like that, my partner is much better at getting his point across!!
My youngest has just become a 'reading mentor' at his primary school - his reading age was 14 at the last assessment. Its so strange having one at one end and one at the other end!
Right - enough babble. Tea and research.
Thanks again everyone - I don't have anybody here to talk things like this with. We go to support groups sometimes, but we often leave feeling like the clouds are weighing us down - its good to get some pro-active conversation.
x
I have just googled Mona McNee and there is a lot about her, so I am going to make a cup of tea and get on to it.
I am not 100% sure of all the ways the schools have tried to teach reading in the past (the terminology) - it has confused me no end. I feel like I'm falling off a roundabout. I need to sit down with all his past school files and see whats what. I do think it will make me cry, because I already know I will find a similar standard all through his school education. It will be a good report to hand over on Tuesday though (school meeting finally confirmed with a time!) Despite all his problems, I am still confident if he learns to read it could open up doors for him in later life.
Mystery - its interesting that you mention his lack of comprehension shouldn't interfere with the reading side. Thats something I always just presumed was a 'given' - Thats deffinately something to think about.
Amber, his school sounds very similar to the school you have taught in. There are a vast range of difficulties between all the children in his class (a small number of pupils). His classroom seems to be mainly Autistic Spectrum and Downs Syndrome. The school does have more severely physically/mentally disabled pupils also, but they are in small groups together also. I have nothing but respect for the people who support and work with these children, it is a hard thing to do. Sometimes as a parent you don't want to say too much at the school about the education side because they are doing such a wonderful job. But, my heart is saying its time to step up and get forceful about it...I struggle with things like that, my partner is much better at getting his point across!!
My youngest has just become a 'reading mentor' at his primary school - his reading age was 14 at the last assessment. Its so strange having one at one end and one at the other end!
Right - enough babble. Tea and research.
Thanks again everyone - I don't have anybody here to talk things like this with. We go to support groups sometimes, but we often leave feeling like the clouds are weighing us down - its good to get some pro-active conversation.
x
