Where do I start?
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Disney-Mum
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Re: Where do I start?
Hello 
It would be wonderful if you could point me in some directions. The words we've been learning (or not learning) are for the school 'spelling test' - and I have pointed out that he has been trying to learn them since reception/year 1. (I remember walking him to school in y2 learning THE, THEIR, THAT etc....and he could do them then...its just not sticking, and they're convinced this is the only way to teach it!)
To give you an idea - he is probably at Reception level for reading/writing. He has word finding difficulties, which means that he might know the word he's trying to say, but can't 'find' it - for instance Apple would come out 'its fruit, you eat it'.... This again, is probably having quite an impact on his reading - perhaps he KNOWS the word but its not coming out correctly...
My hope is to be able to get him to read enough to be 'safe' and hope the rest comes along. For instance Do Not Enter, or Deep Water. If there is a picture he can sometimes work it out... Putting written words into context would be amazing.
One way I have tried to explain it to many different teachers is that he doesn't seem to associate the written word with speech. he can copy things quite well, but he is seeing the words as pictures, not as individual letters put together. He loves to draw, but everything is pretty abstract, only black pen, and usually stick figures! Lots of numbers, but they don't actually mean anything in the picture. It just looks good to him!
I have started at home again with age 4-5 learn to read and write books, and he is already not managing the 'rhyming' aspect of it, or the difference between letters and words. There is a block there somewhere, but I am SURE there is a way over it...
Every year they take him back to the 'kipper, chip, floppy' type books, and it drives us crazy because it doesn't work! He is now remembering the stories but still getting the actual words wrong!
I do have a meeting coming up with the school, if you have any knowledge of other programmes I could look into, I could feel more armed when I go in and talk to the school about it.
I understand you have no experience with children like this little man, but sometimes it can take an 'outside the box' approch - we often feel that the 'specialists' are convinced they know the way to do it, and won't accept that its just not working in this case....
Thank you for listening to me, and any pointers would be greatly appreciated. If you'd like to PM me, that would be fine (I apologise for taking over this thread!)
x
It would be wonderful if you could point me in some directions. The words we've been learning (or not learning) are for the school 'spelling test' - and I have pointed out that he has been trying to learn them since reception/year 1. (I remember walking him to school in y2 learning THE, THEIR, THAT etc....and he could do them then...its just not sticking, and they're convinced this is the only way to teach it!)
To give you an idea - he is probably at Reception level for reading/writing. He has word finding difficulties, which means that he might know the word he's trying to say, but can't 'find' it - for instance Apple would come out 'its fruit, you eat it'.... This again, is probably having quite an impact on his reading - perhaps he KNOWS the word but its not coming out correctly...
My hope is to be able to get him to read enough to be 'safe' and hope the rest comes along. For instance Do Not Enter, or Deep Water. If there is a picture he can sometimes work it out... Putting written words into context would be amazing.
One way I have tried to explain it to many different teachers is that he doesn't seem to associate the written word with speech. he can copy things quite well, but he is seeing the words as pictures, not as individual letters put together. He loves to draw, but everything is pretty abstract, only black pen, and usually stick figures! Lots of numbers, but they don't actually mean anything in the picture. It just looks good to him!
I have started at home again with age 4-5 learn to read and write books, and he is already not managing the 'rhyming' aspect of it, or the difference between letters and words. There is a block there somewhere, but I am SURE there is a way over it...
Every year they take him back to the 'kipper, chip, floppy' type books, and it drives us crazy because it doesn't work! He is now remembering the stories but still getting the actual words wrong!
I do have a meeting coming up with the school, if you have any knowledge of other programmes I could look into, I could feel more armed when I go in and talk to the school about it.
I understand you have no experience with children like this little man, but sometimes it can take an 'outside the box' approch - we often feel that the 'specialists' are convinced they know the way to do it, and won't accept that its just not working in this case....
Thank you for listening to me, and any pointers would be greatly appreciated. If you'd like to PM me, that would be fine (I apologise for taking over this thread!)
x
Re: Where do I start?
Is he fussy about things being age appropriate in terms of story and illustrations?
Re: Where do I start?
ps. meant to say yes I am sure there is a way over it! However, the time it would take to do it at home if he needs a lot of practice in order to get stuff into long term memory might be impractical if it is on top of school. However, if school can be persuaded to use an effective method that could be good.
I'm not recommending this as your "method" as this is out of date, but to give you a feel for the alternative approach, try reading "Why Johnny Can't Read", and also take a look at Mona McNee's Phonics for Free website.
Will have some ideas when you say what he likes. The current method does sound a bit fruitless. Some thing like Apples and Pears is very useful for KS1 pupils but something like Read Write Inc Fresh Start or ARI/BRI might work better for him now. There are some phonic reading schemes with typical "boy appeal" too but that might not be up his street.
You can sometimes by schemes on approval and then you can send it back if you don't think it will suit you and your son.
Does he get speech and language help for the recall of words issue that you mention? I don't think that should be a problem when reading unless he has issues remembering what individual letters sound like. Do you think that will be an issue? He is clearly good at giving you clues!
Take a look at "saying the sounds" on the Phonics International website.
You could try the RRF message board. There are a lot of people on there (internationally) who have experience tutoring a huge range of pupils both with and without reading difficulties who will also have some suggestions.
I'm not recommending this as your "method" as this is out of date, but to give you a feel for the alternative approach, try reading "Why Johnny Can't Read", and also take a look at Mona McNee's Phonics for Free website.
Will have some ideas when you say what he likes. The current method does sound a bit fruitless. Some thing like Apples and Pears is very useful for KS1 pupils but something like Read Write Inc Fresh Start or ARI/BRI might work better for him now. There are some phonic reading schemes with typical "boy appeal" too but that might not be up his street.
You can sometimes by schemes on approval and then you can send it back if you don't think it will suit you and your son.
Does he get speech and language help for the recall of words issue that you mention? I don't think that should be a problem when reading unless he has issues remembering what individual letters sound like. Do you think that will be an issue? He is clearly good at giving you clues!
Take a look at "saying the sounds" on the Phonics International website.
You could try the RRF message board. There are a lot of people on there (internationally) who have experience tutoring a huge range of pupils both with and without reading difficulties who will also have some suggestions.
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Disney-Mum
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:02 am
Re: Where do I start?
Hello
Thank you!!!
He loves 'make believe' and magic. And Star Wars! Reading wise, he doesn't seem to have any preferences. He likes comics, for the pictures, pokemon, probably things that are appropriate for 8year olds? We did wonder if maybe his lack of wanting to read was because the topics were boring. he has shelves of books and loves to look at them, but doesn't read the words - it doesn't seem to bother him!
I will take a look at your suggestions later tonight, I am sure it will all help. I have a meeting with the school next week....
We have files and files of speech and language paperwork, spellings and reading from yr1 up.... He doesn't get one on one speech and language anymore because he is in a special school, so it is all incorporated in lesson time - but we are looking into trying to find some extra speech time for him because we can see him getting worse. (Although they won't do this in school!) The school is an amazing school, and it is deffinately the best place for him, but there are some bits lacking. He does tend to take on the mannerisms of the other kids too, so thats something we're always on top of.
My goal is to put everything into supporting his reading this year! I put a lot of effort into helping his brother with the 11+, so its time to flip the coin (and then it will be sats time!, haha!)
Thanks again for your help,
x
Thank you!!!
He loves 'make believe' and magic. And Star Wars! Reading wise, he doesn't seem to have any preferences. He likes comics, for the pictures, pokemon, probably things that are appropriate for 8year olds? We did wonder if maybe his lack of wanting to read was because the topics were boring. he has shelves of books and loves to look at them, but doesn't read the words - it doesn't seem to bother him!
I will take a look at your suggestions later tonight, I am sure it will all help. I have a meeting with the school next week....
We have files and files of speech and language paperwork, spellings and reading from yr1 up.... He doesn't get one on one speech and language anymore because he is in a special school, so it is all incorporated in lesson time - but we are looking into trying to find some extra speech time for him because we can see him getting worse. (Although they won't do this in school!) The school is an amazing school, and it is deffinately the best place for him, but there are some bits lacking. He does tend to take on the mannerisms of the other kids too, so thats something we're always on top of.
My goal is to put everything into supporting his reading this year! I put a lot of effort into helping his brother with the 11+, so its time to flip the coin (and then it will be sats time!, haha!)
Thanks again for your help,
x
Re: Where do I start?
OK, if he likes things that 8 year olds might like then I think you will find there are a lot of phonics schemes on the market which may suit him.
Just tell me a bit more - can he remember the sounds that letters make? e..g that S says ssss etc etc. If so, which ones? Can he blend them into words?
If you gave him a made up word like pog could he read it either straight off or by saying each sound and then rolling them together into the word?
Just tell me a bit more - can he remember the sounds that letters make? e..g that S says ssss etc etc. If so, which ones? Can he blend them into words?
If you gave him a made up word like pog could he read it either straight off or by saying each sound and then rolling them together into the word?
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Disney-Mum
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- Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:02 am
Re: Where do I start?
Wow - I can't believe its Friday already - where does the time go!
Sorry for the late reply!
He can say the letters (gets mixed up sometimes) but when it comes to putting them as a word will say something very random - for instance, he would say B I G - Ball..... Or say THE for is. He is very random, and it does depend on if his brain is switched on.
This is probably why its so difficult. And, if you teach him certain words it seems he remembers them for a short time - or rather, remembers what you have been doing. Example - we've been doing the school spellings for a couple of weeks, and he knows we are learning ONE and THE and SAID and WAS....so now, if I ask him randomly how to spell THE - his mind goes blank, and he'll write YOU. BUT he is managing to read them on the bits of paper we're using (although he can't if they are in a foreign environment such as a book or a sign....)
Which is better than a few months ago when it would have just been squiggles.
It would be much worse if it bothered him, but it really doesn't seem to. Which is a blessing and a curse, because 1 - he doesn't get upset about it, but 2 - he doesn't seem to see the need to do it!
x
Sorry for the late reply!
He can say the letters (gets mixed up sometimes) but when it comes to putting them as a word will say something very random - for instance, he would say B I G - Ball..... Or say THE for is. He is very random, and it does depend on if his brain is switched on.
This is probably why its so difficult. And, if you teach him certain words it seems he remembers them for a short time - or rather, remembers what you have been doing. Example - we've been doing the school spellings for a couple of weeks, and he knows we are learning ONE and THE and SAID and WAS....so now, if I ask him randomly how to spell THE - his mind goes blank, and he'll write YOU. BUT he is managing to read them on the bits of paper we're using (although he can't if they are in a foreign environment such as a book or a sign....)
Which is better than a few months ago when it would have just been squiggles.
It would be much worse if it bothered him, but it really doesn't seem to. Which is a blessing and a curse, because 1 - he doesn't get upset about it, but 2 - he doesn't seem to see the need to do it!
x
Re: Where do I start?
Sorry, I'm really confused by your answer.
When he is reading (forget spelling for now) the early stage RWI books ( I think you said you had purple for example) he should be working out each word by sounding out and then blending.
So for example bus - he would say b (the sound, not the letter name), then uh, then ssssssss - then he would roll it altogether into bus.
Which of these steps can he not do? If he can't do this you need to go back to basics. He is guessing at the moment by the sounds of it.
I'd dump the spelling until he can read a bit.
Then spelling is the opposite - he needs to break the words down into individual sounds, and then write those sounds down in order. e.g. bat ---- b a t (sounds not letter names) -- then write them down b a t - then read it back by sounding out and blending to check he got it right.
The spelling lists he has sound completely inappropriate for the stage he is at in both reading and spelling. He's badly confused by the sounds of it.
When he is reading (forget spelling for now) the early stage RWI books ( I think you said you had purple for example) he should be working out each word by sounding out and then blending.
So for example bus - he would say b (the sound, not the letter name), then uh, then ssssssss - then he would roll it altogether into bus.
Which of these steps can he not do? If he can't do this you need to go back to basics. He is guessing at the moment by the sounds of it.
I'd dump the spelling until he can read a bit.
Then spelling is the opposite - he needs to break the words down into individual sounds, and then write those sounds down in order. e.g. bat ---- b a t (sounds not letter names) -- then write them down b a t - then read it back by sounding out and blending to check he got it right.
The spelling lists he has sound completely inappropriate for the stage he is at in both reading and spelling. He's badly confused by the sounds of it.
Re: Where do I start?
Yes I'm sorry I meant to say that the school spellings are clearly working their way through high frequency words whether or not they fit with the phonic patterns he is learning to use in his reading or not. In my view you'd be better off spending precious home time learning to read in a logical way rather than trying to learn lists of random words.
What is the school method for teaching reading? Do they tell you how they are teaching him, what the programme is, where they are with it with your son?
Sorry I meant to ask you, is it a state special needs school, or a private one, and which special educational needs are they concentrating on?
I also meant to say, maybe you need to go further back in the RWI programme if you think he does not know all the GPCs e.g. back to the ditties. What did the placement test in the handbook show you?
How does he manage with Set 1 story 1?
Maybe you could try Apples and Pears and then RWI?
Sorry about all the questions, but with the memory issue your son might appear to have, it's all the more important that the programme is logical, takes forward steps very slowly, provides plenty of practice before moving on to a new GPC etc etc.
If you say d o g ( sounds not letter names) to you son, can he put that back together into the word dog?
What is the school method for teaching reading? Do they tell you how they are teaching him, what the programme is, where they are with it with your son?
Sorry I meant to ask you, is it a state special needs school, or a private one, and which special educational needs are they concentrating on?
I also meant to say, maybe you need to go further back in the RWI programme if you think he does not know all the GPCs e.g. back to the ditties. What did the placement test in the handbook show you?
How does he manage with Set 1 story 1?
Maybe you could try Apples and Pears and then RWI?
Sorry about all the questions, but with the memory issue your son might appear to have, it's all the more important that the programme is logical, takes forward steps very slowly, provides plenty of practice before moving on to a new GPC etc etc.
If you say d o g ( sounds not letter names) to you son, can he put that back together into the word dog?
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Disney-Mum
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:02 am
Re: Where do I start?
Ah, you see, this is the crux of the problem. Every year/new teacher, they say 'we need to go back to basics' and start teaching him as you would a reception/year 1 child....and every year it fails. That way of teaching him simply does not work, and has not worked the last 7 or so years. This is my frustration. Every new person thinks THEY can do it, and they all give up because it doesn't work....
I think there must be another deeper problem to it.
It is not a private school. It is a very good school, but it seems to be concentrating more on Life skills than education as such. I don't think he will come out with any GCSE's - he didn't sit any SATS.
It is all very confusing, but I do have all the sheets and information and early books we have been trying, and we will continue with them. I am hoping to get him some specialised speech therapy, so that will help with letter sounds. I am writing a big list of things I need to be forceful about at this next meeting.
x
I think there must be another deeper problem to it.
It is not a private school. It is a very good school, but it seems to be concentrating more on Life skills than education as such. I don't think he will come out with any GCSE's - he didn't sit any SATS.
It is all very confusing, but I do have all the sheets and information and early books we have been trying, and we will continue with them. I am hoping to get him some specialised speech therapy, so that will help with letter sounds. I am writing a big list of things I need to be forceful about at this next meeting.
x
Re: Where do I start?
I see exactly what you mean, there is no point in doing exactly the same thing the same way each year.
But what is the method they are using? It does just seem to be learning whole words from the high frequency words lists ------ sorry if I'm jumping to conclusions but that's what it sounds like. What is the method? I'd have thought that a special school would be genned up on some very precise and systematic ways of teaching children to read, but this doesn't sound like it.
Quite often a school doesn't ever tell you properly what they have done e.g. at our school they tell the parents they use Read Write Inc to teach reading ....... well they kind of do, but they don't really follow that much of the scheme so this would be a misleading description if you bought the scheme and looked through it ..... you'd be baffled.
Do you have the time to go in and observe how they teach reading? Certainly your spelling lists sound incredibly old fashioned. You could so a similar job yourself with Peter and Jane Ladybird key word scheme readers but it probably won't work.
Does he know the sounds of individual letters - which ones? Can he blend a new simple word? If you say d o g to him (letter sounds not names) can he stick it back together into a word. If none of this rings bells with you chances are he's learning with a whole word method and it just isn't working for him.
But what is the method they are using? It does just seem to be learning whole words from the high frequency words lists ------ sorry if I'm jumping to conclusions but that's what it sounds like. What is the method? I'd have thought that a special school would be genned up on some very precise and systematic ways of teaching children to read, but this doesn't sound like it.
Quite often a school doesn't ever tell you properly what they have done e.g. at our school they tell the parents they use Read Write Inc to teach reading ....... well they kind of do, but they don't really follow that much of the scheme so this would be a misleading description if you bought the scheme and looked through it ..... you'd be baffled.
Do you have the time to go in and observe how they teach reading? Certainly your spelling lists sound incredibly old fashioned. You could so a similar job yourself with Peter and Jane Ladybird key word scheme readers but it probably won't work.
Does he know the sounds of individual letters - which ones? Can he blend a new simple word? If you say d o g to him (letter sounds not names) can he stick it back together into a word. If none of this rings bells with you chances are he's learning with a whole word method and it just isn't working for him.
