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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:13 pm 
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kenyancowgirl wrote:
With all due respect, I don't think it is impossible to get it is just that you did not offer sufficient evidence of the need for extra time PRIOR to taking the 11+, wasn't it? I may be reading it wrong but I think you offered the evidence required after your child had taken the 11+ and it was then granted going forward for your SATs.

I was responding to PlaceQuests phrase that the grammar school offers 25% extra time but that this proved impossible to get.

It isn’t impossible to get, prior to sitting the test, if you provide them the evidence they require by the time they need it.l, is all I was saying.


In the end it wasn't a question of evidence but timing as all the evidence boxes were ticked for extra time, in case you missed my comment above:
PlaceQuest wrote:
...schools can't apply for extra time in SATs until the 29 January which makes it impossible to get extra time in the entrance exam if the grammar school insist in the same arrangements to be in place in the primary school.

That means the grammar school requires a statement from the current school prior to the 11+ exam (in September) that the child WILL get extra time in formal exams, for most state school kids the only formal exam will be SATs. It is impossible to get the letter from the state primary school confirming extra time in SATs until some time after the 29 January the following year, when the current school has applied to the Standards and Testing Agency. I accept that private school kids may qualify under these conditions as many have formal exams before the 11+ exam including mocks.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:20 pm 
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No, sorry you are wrong, that's not how it works - to get additional time in the KS2 tests it has to be part of normal classroom practice ie in place long before that.

Many children have additional time in KS1 or as it becomes obvious that their SEN demands it. No school will wait until Year 6 - that's FAR too late.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:27 pm 
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Yes, my understanding about the deadline for the Sats is not that that is when you hand the evidence in - that is just the date you apply for the Sats - usually under the umbrella of “this is their usual way of working” - ie the processes are already in place.

Evidence for the necessity of extra time with regards to the 11+ that I have seen have sometimes come from a primary SENCO (usually stating that this is their normal way of working) or from a professional such as a medical consultant or educational psychologist. And, yes, sometimes parents have had to pay for these assessments....! So it is possible - and frequently done - to provide acceptable evidence in advance of the 11+ test. With appeals, though, you also have to provide more evidence of academic ability, as well as reasons why that specific school is the most suitable - regardless of your individual circumstances, I am pretty sure.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:57 pm 
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Sorry Kenyancowgirl and Guest55, I must be confusing you. I'm firstly only talking about extra time in the SATs not class room arrangements. The details of access arrangements in SATs (such as extra time) are all contained in this link:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... idance.pdf
I know it's not an easy read but it does make it clear on page 5 that:
‘Access arrangements’ section of NCA tools3 opens for applications for early opening, compensatory marks for spelling, additional time and timetable variations on Monday 29 January. That is the opening date for the additional time application by the school, not the SATs application.

Maybe your experience is different but we have gone through the process and it is as I described. Many people get late diagnosis, many SEN issues wouldn't be noticeable until age 9-10 or more. My ds's SEN issue was over looked by the school and many people struggle for years to get any assessment.


Last edited by PlaceQuest on Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:19 pm 
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mystery wrote:
I've helped out with KS2 tests with children for whom adjustments were allowed including extra time. I do not know what the rules were nor what the issues were which had led to the adjustments but the whole arrangement was unsatisfactory.

From my experience the problem mainly lies in the SEN assessment process, due to budget cuts in LA's only the most obvious cases get any attention. Those who have bright kids or who cope well in the school environment risk getting overlooked.

mystery wrote:
So, it was good to hear that Bucks had made some really good arrangement for this child's 11 plus test and also for her to know that she did well without extra time. Fantastic.

I'm not in Bucks so can't talk from experience. It's a county with lots of grammar schools so they must have more experience there- they still have to follow the Equality Act though.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:36 pm 
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You have misunderstood us - I know about the process of applying but you CANNOT apply unless the adjustments you seek are already happening in class.

I've been a SENCo so am very familiar with what has to be done and in what order.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:40 pm 
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We are yet to test the exam accomodations system. DS has an EHCP which outlines use of a keyboard in class but - as you'd expect from the wacky-world of SEN provision - it hasn't been provided in practice. The teacher said the keyboard was a distraction (it probably was) but by coincidence the school don't own any keyboards. I have no idea where this would leave us in applying for accomodations - the EHCP would provide evidence of need for daily use, even tho it hasn't actually happened in practice.....

Our local grammar automatically offers 25% extra time in the exam to those with an EHCP - whether it is needed or not. I don't think that DS needs that extra time. A keyboard would probably be more useful.... but it would probably be tricky to get because not many schools seem to be able to offer it to more than a couple of pupils.

Overall extra time can be a bit of a curse. It would turn a 2 hour exam into a 2.5 hour exam - which sounds great on the one hand, but on the other that's a very long time for a child who has limited experience of formal exams. I've heard it's a nightmare at GCSE stage, with so many papers being extended it turns the whole process into a complete marathon...

As you seem to be on SEN Support you are still in the hideous grey area - as other people have said you need evidence, evidence and more evidence. Mainly evidence of everyday classroom practice. Unfortunately if you are in the same situation (as we were) where the school denied there were any issues that means that you have very limited options. What has been happening with you?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:25 pm 
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Guest55 wrote:
You have misunderstood us - I know about the process of applying but you CANNOT apply unless the adjustments you seek are already happening in class.

I've been a SENCo so am very familiar with what has to be done and in what order.


I never said that access arrangements aren't in general based primarily on normal classroom practice. For example those selected to get extra time in SATs would have been getting extra time in class tests.

Could you post a link from the Standards and Testing Agency or copy a part of the document which shows that I am wrong?

In the end this is the important statement:
PlaceQuest wrote:
That means the grammar school requires a statement from the current school prior to the 11+ exam (in September) that the child WILL get extra time in formal exams, for most state school kids the only formal exam will be SATs. It is impossible to get the letter from the state primary school confirming extra time in SATs until some time after the 29 January the following year, when the current school has applied to the Standards and Testing Agency.

It is the application for SATs extra time that is relevant not normal classroom practice.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:27 pm 
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exam2019 wrote:
We are yet to test the exam accomodations system. DS has an EHCP which outlines use of a keyboard in class but - as you'd expect from the wacky-world of SEN provision - it hasn't been provided in practice. The teacher said the keyboard was a distraction (it probably was) but by coincidence the school don't own any keyboards. I have no idea where this would leave us in applying for accomodations - the EHCP would provide evidence of need for daily use, even tho it hasn't actually happened in practice.....

Our local grammar automatically offers 25% extra time in the exam to those with an EHCP - whether it is needed or not. I don't think that DS needs that extra time. A keyboard would probably be more useful.... but it would probably be tricky to get because not many schools seem to be able to offer it to more than a couple of pupils.

Overall extra time can be a bit of a curse. It would turn a 2 hour exam into a 2.5 hour exam - which sounds great on the one hand, but on the other that's a very long time for a child who has limited experience of formal exams. I've heard it's a nightmare at GCSE stage, with so many papers being extended it turns the whole process into a complete marathon...

As you seem to be on SEN Support you are still in the hideous grey area - as other people have said you need evidence, evidence and more evidence. Mainly evidence of everyday classroom practice. Unfortunately if you are in the same situation (as we were) where the school denied there were any issues that means that you have very limited options. What has been happening with you?

You may find more scope for use of laptops in secondary school. We have not found it a problem with the secondary school my son has attended after his primary svhool were completely oblivious to any problem. I would go and speak to the SENCO at any school you may be interested in, to actually test out how supportive they are and what is likely to be provided.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:38 pm 
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PlaceQuest wrote:
It is the application for SATs extra time that is relevant not normal classroom practice.

No, again not true.

To get access arrangement for the 11+ your Headteacher applies in Year 5 clearly before anything to do with KS2 tests.

To get these arrangements anything asked for has to be part of normal classroom practice already ie in Year 5 or earlier.

I'm not sure what your agenda is here - you did not have the right evidence in time for the 11+ so adjustments could not be made.


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