Grammar schools: Myth v Reality
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Grammar schools: Myth v Reality
I have general queries around the myths v reality of grammar schools. The reason I ask is primarily due to naysayers of the whole grammar school ethos.
I've heard anecdotal answers to these queries and because I understand those peoples views, or political persuasions, the answers they give are clouded and negative.
So I'm asking here not to have my own biases confirmed but to see if there is actual real world evidence to support the myths or the reality.
1. Do many children that have been tutored for the 11 plus need tutoring once they get into grammar or is tutoring a rarity once the children actually get into grammar?
2. Grammar school kids have more mental health issues due to the 'highly pressurised' environment, with some selective girls grammar schools having eating disorder units due to the prevalence of mental health issues
3. Are there parents on here who heard other myths about the grammar school experience which they have now found to be spurious, what were those myths?
The claims I've heard are pretty outlandish to the point I have had to dismiss them outright as they sound crazy. So just seeking a more measured view to whether these claims are true or false as well as alternative myths that have been floating around but experience has proved them to be false.
I've heard anecdotal answers to these queries and because I understand those peoples views, or political persuasions, the answers they give are clouded and negative.
So I'm asking here not to have my own biases confirmed but to see if there is actual real world evidence to support the myths or the reality.
1. Do many children that have been tutored for the 11 plus need tutoring once they get into grammar or is tutoring a rarity once the children actually get into grammar?
2. Grammar school kids have more mental health issues due to the 'highly pressurised' environment, with some selective girls grammar schools having eating disorder units due to the prevalence of mental health issues
3. Are there parents on here who heard other myths about the grammar school experience which they have now found to be spurious, what were those myths?
The claims I've heard are pretty outlandish to the point I have had to dismiss them outright as they sound crazy. So just seeking a more measured view to whether these claims are true or false as well as alternative myths that have been floating around but experience has proved them to be false.
Re: Grammar schools: Myth v Reality
Parents with the means to afford it will continue to pay for tutors whatever school their child attends if they feel unable to support the child's learning themselves (for reasons of time, understanding of the subjects, difficult relationship with the child, needs of siblings etc) . I don't know whether parents who have already invested heavily in pre-11+ tutoring are more likely to continue afterwards but this 2019 survey makes it clear private tuition is concentrated in affluent homes (as you would expect) whether the pupils attend a prestigious grammar, an independent school or the local leafy comprehensive https://www.tes.com/magazine/archive/mo ... ate-tutors" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;MARC1 wrote:
1. Do many children that have been tutored for the 11 plus need tutoring once they get into grammar or is tutoring a rarity once the children actually get into grammar?
Disclaimer: I have done a small but regular amount of private maths tuition locally for GCSE pupils at a good local comprehensive: those from this area who attend grammars probably have such a long commute that they have little time left for more tuition but I have no evidence either way. I am also doing some voluntary online primary tutoring with one of the organisations trying to bridge the tutoring gap in more deprived areas, since there is no doubt that having some personal attention from someone who is not a harassed parent with poor memories of learning themselves can be invaluable.
It seems girls are struggling in all types of schools - I haven't looked at this report in detail but it might have some relevant information. I suspect the type of school is less important than its atmosphere .... https://steer.education/girls-mental-he ... ata-shows/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;MARC1 wrote:2. Grammar school kids have more mental health issues due to the 'highly pressurised' environment, with some selective girls grammar schools having eating disorder units due to the prevalence of mental health issues
Any such myths are probably based on one experience of one school, turned into an unhelpful generalisation setting a small number of schools which select on a one-off test against the schools attended by the majority of the population. As with all aspects of parenting, we make the best decisions we can based on the local situation and an understanding of our own child's needs, hope for the best, and stay available to support them in whatever way we can. There are no guarantees either of academic brilliance, wholesome friends or secure mental health whatever we do!MARC1 wrote: 3. Are there parents on here who heard other myths about the grammar school experience which they have now found to be spurious, what were those myths?
Re: Grammar schools: Myth v Reality
Thanks @solimum.
In terms of grammar myths whilst I'll listen to them i will largely ignore soon after listening.
I attended a 'rough' boys comprehensive in south east London when I was 11. There were wild claims of 'initiation ceremonies' and I never saw such a thing in all my 7 years there
In terms of grammar myths whilst I'll listen to them i will largely ignore soon after listening.
I attended a 'rough' boys comprehensive in south east London when I was 11. There were wild claims of 'initiation ceremonies' and I never saw such a thing in all my 7 years there
Re: Grammar schools: Myth v Reality
As others here have mentioned it is not a grammar/comprehensive thing generally, as local schools all have their own differences. I can add 2 other myths for you but you should focus on what the situation at the specific schools you are looking at.
Myth - grammar school kids are better/worse behaved than others - answer - yes sometimes - either way - so irrelevant.
Myth - grammar schools have better/worse teachers - nonsense - some do some don't, you could argue that it is less important to have good teachers in schools with uber bright kids and highly invested parents anyway.
Myth - grammar schools have better/worse parents (by which I assume people mean more invested or frankly somewhat over invested). Probably true on both counts, although I would not necessarily see it as better/worse and in an ideal world it would be totally irrelevant.
In general as with any myth there will be an element of truth - but there are myths both ways! Try to focus on your local options and your DC. That is all that is relevant to you.
Myth - grammar school kids are better/worse behaved than others - answer - yes sometimes - either way - so irrelevant.
Myth - grammar schools have better/worse teachers - nonsense - some do some don't, you could argue that it is less important to have good teachers in schools with uber bright kids and highly invested parents anyway.
Myth - grammar schools have better/worse parents (by which I assume people mean more invested or frankly somewhat over invested). Probably true on both counts, although I would not necessarily see it as better/worse and in an ideal world it would be totally irrelevant.
In general as with any myth there will be an element of truth - but there are myths both ways! Try to focus on your local options and your DC. That is all that is relevant to you.
mad?
Re: Grammar schools: Myth v Reality
1. I don't think there is necessarily a need for tutoring but tutoring does happen all the way through grammar school. This would be more for those wishing to get top grades. Also those needing a push up from a lower grade.
2. No. Most that are at my children's grammar schools have parents that have the ability to support their children fully (ie, they appear not to have basic concerns) so imo there will not be more children with mental health issues. All schools have issues.
3. No myths I heard.
4. Teachers are the same as those in non selective schools.
To get to grammar school the parents have to be vested in their child's education - everything else will follow from that.
Parents/Income is the biggest factor in education and attainment. The less you have to worry about the basics the better your child will do if you devote some of that time/money to your children.
2. No. Most that are at my children's grammar schools have parents that have the ability to support their children fully (ie, they appear not to have basic concerns) so imo there will not be more children with mental health issues. All schools have issues.
3. No myths I heard.
4. Teachers are the same as those in non selective schools.
To get to grammar school the parents have to be vested in their child's education - everything else will follow from that.
Parents/Income is the biggest factor in education and attainment. The less you have to worry about the basics the better your child will do if you devote some of that time/money to your children.
Re: Grammar schools: Myth v Reality
Mental illness is not the sole prerogative of young people with the 'wrong' sort of parents...bridge wrote:
2. No. Most that are at my children's grammar schools have parents that have the ability to support their children fully (ie, they appear not to have basic concerns) so imo there will not be more children with mental health issues. All schools have issues.
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.Groucho Marx
Re: Grammar schools: Myth v Reality
That's not what I said. Nevertheless, parents that have the wherewithal to support their children will avoid problems that those that cannot. Not that they are 'wrong' or 'right' whatever those terms might mean.ToadMum wrote:Mental illness is not the sole prerogative of young people with the 'wrong' sort of parents...bridge wrote:
2. No. Most that are at my children's grammar schools have parents that have the ability to support their children fully (ie, they appear not to have basic concerns) so imo there will not be more children with mental health issues. All schools have issues.
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PettswoodFiona
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Re: Grammar schools: Myth v Reality
Another myth I can attest to is that those who had children who sat the grammar test and then didn't pass will often then spend the rest of their child's education saying how terrible the grammar school was for pastoral care (or some other reason) and they didn't want their child to go there anyway...I've even had parents come upto me and said 'so-and-so says your daughter is hating the school due to bullying and so-and-so's child is so happy in their school and you are thinking of moving your child' - but no I never said such a thing, it is just something parents like to justify their choice with and grammar schools seem easy targets to hate.
My daughter's grammar busts most of the myths it is a well balanced girl's grammar where most girls are happy and thrive. The private girls school she left at primary however is rife with all the problems you fear about so (as others have already said) any attribute is rarely just a grammar school 'thing', more an ethos thing specific any particular school.
My daughter's grammar busts most of the myths it is a well balanced girl's grammar where most girls are happy and thrive. The private girls school she left at primary however is rife with all the problems you fear about so (as others have already said) any attribute is rarely just a grammar school 'thing', more an ethos thing specific any particular school.
Re: Grammar schools: Myth v Reality
@PettswoodFiona, I've heard many a scurrilous rumour about the grammar you speak of and I've had to ignore as when I question further its usually some friend's, uncle's, 2nd cousin's boss who has told the person I was speaking to. And you are right its usually someone who didnt get in and now has made it there job to let others know how 'bad' the place is.
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PerpetualStudent
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Re: Grammar schools: Myth v Reality
I will second mad’s point about all these schools having their differences: each grammar school does things it’s own way.
When DD started year 7 her homework requirements went down and they hadn’t been onerous anyway. Her grammar school had a policy of avoiding busywork and tight deadlines. Nevertheless, the myth that there was a heavy workload persisted amongst some outsiders who didn’t bother to familiarise themselves with the individual school. Workloads increased gradually into GCSEs but everything was very focussed on what was in the syllabus (much to DD’s frustration).
A few of DD’s friends had been tutored for the 11+ it seems, but not all of them. I can only think of one who continued to be tutored and that was due to a parental policy of leaving nothing to chance. Indeed, it seemed that parents tended to be a greater source of pressure than the school itself and perhaps grammar schools are more likely to attract the heavily invested parent.
DD’s grammar did provide subject clinics for students wanting additional academic support so, in theory, tutoring shouldn’t have been necessary. But these ran at lunchtime and competed with lunch/clubs/socialising. You can lead a horse to water… - in which case I could see a parent resorting to tutors where resources allowed.
Some of DD’s classmates complained of how academically intense school was, especially with teacher expectations (there was little formal competition) but DD said she didn’t really feel it (and yet wanted to make sure she kept up with her friends!)
Amongst her friends marks weren’t compared so the emphasis was on making sure everyone was ok with what they got. The one exception to this seems to have been one girl who alienated a few of the group by insisting on direct comparisons. But friendship groups, while cliquey at first, over time relaxed and widened significantly to form broad associations throughout a quite tolerant student body.
I can’t really comment on the prevalence of mental health issues at the grammar except to note that DD’s grammar did make moves over her 5 years there to improve mental health support. In my wider experience, people seem to automatically blame academic pressure when issues do arise regardless of whatever else is going on. It’s a quick and easy answer that solves the apparent need for a simple narrative.
Pastoral care in general is something that a school is often said to be good or bad at. But really this is so situational: some staff handled some problems well and not others, perhaps depending on their own experience/training/biases.
When DD started year 7 her homework requirements went down and they hadn’t been onerous anyway. Her grammar school had a policy of avoiding busywork and tight deadlines. Nevertheless, the myth that there was a heavy workload persisted amongst some outsiders who didn’t bother to familiarise themselves with the individual school. Workloads increased gradually into GCSEs but everything was very focussed on what was in the syllabus (much to DD’s frustration).
A few of DD’s friends had been tutored for the 11+ it seems, but not all of them. I can only think of one who continued to be tutored and that was due to a parental policy of leaving nothing to chance. Indeed, it seemed that parents tended to be a greater source of pressure than the school itself and perhaps grammar schools are more likely to attract the heavily invested parent.
DD’s grammar did provide subject clinics for students wanting additional academic support so, in theory, tutoring shouldn’t have been necessary. But these ran at lunchtime and competed with lunch/clubs/socialising. You can lead a horse to water… - in which case I could see a parent resorting to tutors where resources allowed.
Some of DD’s classmates complained of how academically intense school was, especially with teacher expectations (there was little formal competition) but DD said she didn’t really feel it (and yet wanted to make sure she kept up with her friends!)
Amongst her friends marks weren’t compared so the emphasis was on making sure everyone was ok with what they got. The one exception to this seems to have been one girl who alienated a few of the group by insisting on direct comparisons. But friendship groups, while cliquey at first, over time relaxed and widened significantly to form broad associations throughout a quite tolerant student body.
I can’t really comment on the prevalence of mental health issues at the grammar except to note that DD’s grammar did make moves over her 5 years there to improve mental health support. In my wider experience, people seem to automatically blame academic pressure when issues do arise regardless of whatever else is going on. It’s a quick and easy answer that solves the apparent need for a simple narrative.
Pastoral care in general is something that a school is often said to be good or bad at. But really this is so situational: some staff handled some problems well and not others, perhaps depending on their own experience/training/biases.
