How are you preparing your child?

[andyb]

Go for it if thats what you need to do for her to pass. Even if they struggle at grammar, these schools are very good at supporting these kids so I wouldnt worry about it.

But should the school have to assign extra resources to a child who has been tutored to pass an exam when the limited funds available could be better spent on 30 children who are more suited to a grammar school environment?

[sherry_d]

What evidence have you got to suggest that those over tutored struggle anyway Andy? Its teachers perception that those who struggle are overtutored but there is no hard evidence and or parents with very clever kids who think grammar is for the likes of them.

Secondly every child has a right to that help if they are struggling be it in a comprehensive or a grammar. No child should be denied such help if it is needed and that money should come from the govt and taxes that I pay.

How do you define "children more suited to grammar". It seem your defination implies those who arent tutored more than your own and if that is your defination its a rather bizzare one in my eyes as you are assuming everything else equal. A child in a good school may after all not need any extra help, how about those who have been failed by the sysyem? Should we not help them as parents to have an equal chance to those who have had a good start in life. How about the average who with a bit of push can become superstars? For me if that means "over tutoring" then so be it. No child has a right or deserve more a place than any other child. There are many VERY clever kids out there in comprehensives and I dont think its the very best or clever that go to grammars, its those who parents wanted them to. Its the parents's ambition and level of education more than anything and this has been proven.

[chicko-mum]

Go for it if thats what you need to do for her to pass. Even if they struggle at grammar, these schools are very good at supporting these kids so I wouldnt worry about it.

But should the school have to assign extra resources to a child who has been tutored to pass an exam when the limited funds available could be better spent on 30 children who are more suited to a grammar school environment?

In my (limited, granted) experience school has effectively asked parents of 'struggling' students to get tutoring to keep up with the pace of work, resources and staff are so limited in schools - been told by parents of DCs in such a situation both at local GS & comp schools. May be different in other areas of course. Bit OT, but not sure that I would want my DC to be in bottom or lower sets for 7 years if they're not up to the academic standards of the school (even if they have been able to pass the tests), that could be a bit demoralising, and if it's one of the superselectives then there will be pressure to achieve the top grades as well.

I dont think its the very best or clever that go to grammars, its those who parents wanted them to. Its the parents's ambition and level of education more than anything and this has been proven.

I believe it's the children who really need to want the place at that particular school - I've seen children who do not do their best in an exam purely because they are not motivated by that particular school (to the parents' dismay) but will do their utmost for another school, or even refuse to attempt GS entry because they prefer the local comp school.
My DD is definitely part of the decision making process and the level of work we do at home is also discussed and agreed. If she's not up for it, then there's no point. At the end of the day, she is the one sitting the tests.

[sherry_d]

I believe it's the children who really need to want the place at that particular school

Chickomum I disagree with you here. If most kids were given that choice I think many would opt for the local comprehensive and not bother with 11+ exam stress. After all its where most of the friends are going to. The very very few who may rebel are probably very clever kids who are independent thinkers and can actually fail themselves (that takes a hugely clever kid to do that), otherwise for many its the parents wishes. Kids pick up vibes from us and even if we talk to them I think there would be some bias one way or the other on what schools are best for them.

[chicko-mum]

I don't know, maybe it depends on the schools in the area? Perhaps trying for selectives, doing all the work and knowing only a few will get in, has become the accepted norm here? (And you have to rank them higher on the form otherwise you will get the comp school if you're in catchment of course.) I do believe it is the ones who have that deep desire who tend to succeed - not always the very brightest ones.

Yes kids pick up vibes from us, but they have a mind of their own too. There are 2 local comps where DD and I disagree wholeheartedly about which is the better and I cannot change her stubborn mind! (Wonder where she gets that from? ) She will part of the discussion when we decide in which order we will list the schools.
Maybe you and I just have to agree to disagree on this one? Each will do what they believe is best for their individual DC, which is what matters.

[mad?]

I dont think its the very best or clever that go to grammars

I agree but in terms of what the grammar system was supposed to be then it should be those kids who go there. I am not criticising anyone for the amount of prep they do and so on, but the 'preparability' of the selection mechanism mitigates agaisnt those disadvantaged yet able children the system was supposed to enable. And no, i don't know how to solve the problem!

[tiredmum]

I believe it's the children who really need to want the place at that particular school

Chickomum I disagree with you here. If most kids were given that choice I think many would opt for the local comprehensive and not bother with 11+ exam stress. After all its where most of the friends are going to. .

I have to disagree with you too sherry , I asked dd2 if she wanted to do the 11 plus - explained how much work it may involve, for the test and when at grammar, and she made the decision for her self. She also decided which grammar she wanted to go to and all this when her best buddie is going to the local secondary with 30 of her year group. It was her decision and i was more than happy to help her achieve it.

I too feel sad for those able children who will not get to grammar because their parents dont understand the 11 plus system, but am at a loss what can be done about it. There on many discussions on this forum about this topic.

[Chilled]

sherry_d wrote:

Chickomum I disagree with you here. If most kids were given that choice I think many would opt for the local comprehensive and not bother with 11+ exam stress. After all its where most of the friends are going to. .

Not round here it isn't. Whilst most of the girls go to the local girls only comp. the boys are going to 11 different schools, many of them will be the only child going there from their primary school.

Chicko Mum wrote:

I believe it's the children who really need to want the place at that particular school -

I totally agree with you Chicko Mum. It's the child who has to do the work and who will be spending 5 to 7 years of their life at the school. I think very bright children want to go to a school where academic achievement is valued and will put the work in ready for the exams.

With regard to the amount of prep; as other people have said KSMatharu, you know your child best. I know that for my child two hours of papers and maths problems a night would have been too much, we did about two hours a week term-time and an hour a day in the summer hols when we were at home.

[sherry_d]

Ah well I must be the only authoritarian mum. In our household I told her that she would do the 11+, what they were and that it required hard work. I believe at that age kids are not able to make fully informed decision and as a parent thats my job to direct her to what I believe is right for her and get her to understand why I have made those choices. I believe in liberal choices but hey no way I would give my 10 year old that responsibility of deciding if she wants to do 11+ not. Of course if I knew she would struggle I wouldnt let her go through it.

[Midget Man]

I dont think its the very best or clever that go to grammars

I agree but in terms of what the grammar system was supposed to be then it should be those kids who go there. I am not criticising anyone for the amount of prep they do and so on, but the 'preparability' of the selection mechanism mitigates agaisnt those disadvantaged yet able children the system was supposed to enable. And no, i don't know how to solve the problem!

Very well said Mad?