Grammar Schools underperform at A-level (!) etc

[Tolstoy]

They also have some figures showing again that Grammar Schools underperform in VIth form value added, p5 & p4:

If this is the case why then are the pupils being penalised by the Durham formular when it comes to admission to some universities?

The effect, after all, is simply to make the results of poorly performing schools look better than they actually are. The question is: why would you want to do that?

To pull the wool over peoples eyes?

It would be interesting to have a breakdown of the VA scores of pupils who come to Grammar sixth forms from other institutions. In the Forest of Dean which is part of Gloucestershire most of the comprehensives do not have a 6th form option. The options for A'levels are the local FE college, the Grammar 6th forms in Gloucester or Comprehensives in Chepstow, Monmouth and I believe Newent. This would be an ideal environment to do research on the value added of three different types of 6th form as there are a number of children who enter these very different types of institutions and who have sat their GCSE's elsewhere.

[mystery]

I really don't know about the value added arguments. But I remember looking in quite a bit of detail at GCSE and A' level results for Kent grammars last year and ....... not being that impressed. The way I did it was to look at the % of As and A* at GCSE, and As at A' level (from the newspapers that print these particular stats). I then looked at the percentage across the country that get As and A* at GCSE, and A at A' level. Then I guessed what percentage I thought should have got As and A*s etc at these schools bearing in mind that they take the top 25% of pupils (or better at the superselectives). And a lot of the grammars did not do well by this method - showing maybe that some of them subtract value rather than add value!

Now there could be a number of reasons for this, we can only speculate. But, despite wanting my children to go to Kent grammar schools, it did not make me think that the results justified a selective system in Kent.

Taking an even higher overview of the issue, if the grammar system really produced greater results than a comprehensive system, Kent's overall education stats as a county would be significantly better (in a statistically significant way) than counties without grammar schools. I don't think they are stunningly different are they?

[mike1880]

Kent underperforms as a whole, the grammars are no exception.

Mike

[mystery]

Interesting. Do you think Kent's underperformance is just a quirk of the stats, or for some underlying reason? Is it significant underperformance? It's one of the few counties which has retained the 11+ system almost county-wide, any evidence for a connection?

In my daughter's primary school they are split into houses, year in year out there is one house which always gets the fewest house points, whether for sport or academic work or behaviour ........ but there is no reason, children are randomly assigned to houses. It's a strange fluke.

[zee]

In my daughter's primary school they are split into houses, year in year out there is one house which always gets the fewest house points, whether for sport or academic work or behaviour ........ but there is no reason, children are randomly assigned to houses. It's a strange fluke.

Maybe it's a sort of negative placebo effect: everyone "knows" it's the worst-performing house and so that makes it more likely to continue to be true?

if the grammar system really produced greater results than a comprehensive system, Kent's overall education stats as a county would be significantly better (in a statistically significant way) than counties without grammar schools. I don't think they are stunningly different are they?

But Bucks is, I think, the only other full sized country with a fully two tier system, and it's aggregated results are significantly better than comprehensive counties.

I suspect the process and conclusion are not as straightforward as might at first see.

[mitasol]

Kent is under performing at KS2 so it can't all be blamed on the GS.

[SSM]

I think the difference between Bucks and Kent is that Kent is 'opt in' for the 11+. So even though the whole county is an 11+ county parents still have choose for their kids to do 11+.

[mystery]

I also think that IQ might overall be higher in Bucks than Kent!!

[Gman]

The debate regarding CVA is diverting attention from what I believe is the real problem. That of Grade Inflation.

Every year the pupils do better in both GCSE's and A-Levels. How can this be? It has led to the adoption of the silly A* grade.

The exam system is now set up to ensure more children get A's, thus leading to the lack of a meaningful measure to differentiate the quality of teaching and ability.

[bromley mum]

I also think that IQ might overall be higher in Bucks than Kent!!

I hope not!!