Y3 best way forward
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Re: Y3 best way forward
But Amber, Gawd, there's no way to say this without it sounding as if I'm having a pop which I am NOT, since I've walked the same system you have in the same county and deplore it just as you do, but you of all people should be aware of the dangers of being too casual since your child missed out on the grammar school place of his choice. Maybe in your case it was OK since even if he'd got Tommy's, he may not have got it (given that a pass ain't always enough) and that would have been even more teeth-gnashing, so then you were forced into a different stance and got an indie place. But for those of us who just cannot afford indies, even with the 10% or so off you got, then pursuing the grammar places is that much more important. For lots of us this is the only opportunity we get, without cash from a high earner to rectify things, so who blames the OP for (forgive me if I'm inventing here) eye rolling a bit at the thought of more "play."
I'm with Sherry - what harm will it do the child for a bit of loving back up? None. We've all seen footage of kids in India and Africa. Blimey, ours are so privileged it doesn't bear thinking about. And since we create the distinctive that lolling with a DS or climbing yet another b*****y tree = fun and playing around with words doesn't, who are we to visit this on a child.
I'm with Sherry - what harm will it do the child for a bit of loving back up? None. We've all seen footage of kids in India and Africa. Blimey, ours are so privileged it doesn't bear thinking about. And since we create the distinctive that lolling with a DS or climbing yet another b*****y tree = fun and playing around with words doesn't, who are we to visit this on a child.
Re: Y3 best way forward
I hope you feel better soon Amber.
I must just say how lovely it is for a thread to be remaining si civil despite differences of opinion.
I must just say how lovely it is for a thread to be remaining si civil despite differences of opinion.
Re: Y3 best way forward
Milla, pop away - I am a (literally at the moment!) sitting/lying target! I appreciate all you say and have admitted several times that my own principles have been stretched to the limit over the whole process, and also I have honed my own opinions through debating on this site. Many a greater man/woman has foundered on the rocks of principles versus real life; and I have never shied away from this awkward bit of my own history. I also have another DS begging to do GS tests, and am wringing my hands over whether to buy into the coaching culture, thereby giving him the edge his brother did not have.
Just 2 things: after our initial devastation that DS1 missed out on Tommy's, we have become immensely proud of him that he still passed the 11+ very creditably with (and this is the truth) no coaching whatsoever. We have done all the emotions and he recently told me that he was 'upset at the time because I failed; but actually I am happy now that I am not going to the school as I don't think it would have suited me.' Well, who knows? He is very popular with the girls, so would have missed them; and also the only child he does know who is going is someone he doesn't get on with.
Second thing - and this is not a gloat, but just to correct a fact. We got much more than 10% off, or we could not even dream of it. I was very OK with the idea of the local comp (if you read back you will see I am not inventing this now) and just proud of his scholarship when it was offered.
I don't know: I don't like selective education at all, as I feel that it does disadvantage so many children. And yes, indie too, but I suppose at least it doesn't pretend to be accessible to all the way GS does. I am not pillorying anyone who chooses to coach; but as I said in the last post, I do despise a system which encourages it; and we must always, always remember that England is considered by UNICEF to be a very bad place to grow up, to a large part because of the emphasis on competition at school - so it's not as if I am trying to address something which is not a problem. The debate moved on and 2 posters asked me to explain some terms I had used, so I don't feel I was on my soapbox for the mere sake of it. I remain committed to play as the best way for young children to spend their time; and there is a world of difference between sensible preparation for an exam and eating into a very young child's free time (and remember the OP's child had just left the infants) because of concerns about future 11+ performance.
Just 2 things: after our initial devastation that DS1 missed out on Tommy's, we have become immensely proud of him that he still passed the 11+ very creditably with (and this is the truth) no coaching whatsoever. We have done all the emotions and he recently told me that he was 'upset at the time because I failed; but actually I am happy now that I am not going to the school as I don't think it would have suited me.' Well, who knows? He is very popular with the girls, so would have missed them; and also the only child he does know who is going is someone he doesn't get on with.
Second thing - and this is not a gloat, but just to correct a fact. We got much more than 10% off, or we could not even dream of it. I was very OK with the idea of the local comp (if you read back you will see I am not inventing this now) and just proud of his scholarship when it was offered.
I don't know: I don't like selective education at all, as I feel that it does disadvantage so many children. And yes, indie too, but I suppose at least it doesn't pretend to be accessible to all the way GS does. I am not pillorying anyone who chooses to coach; but as I said in the last post, I do despise a system which encourages it; and we must always, always remember that England is considered by UNICEF to be a very bad place to grow up, to a large part because of the emphasis on competition at school - so it's not as if I am trying to address something which is not a problem. The debate moved on and 2 posters asked me to explain some terms I had used, so I don't feel I was on my soapbox for the mere sake of it. I remain committed to play as the best way for young children to spend their time; and there is a world of difference between sensible preparation for an exam and eating into a very young child's free time (and remember the OP's child had just left the infants) because of concerns about future 11+ performance.
Re: Y3 best way forward
I know we are going way off topic but if its all comprehensive it does disadvantage other children too, those who are able. Infact its not just those who are able but it can really hold everyone. Why cant we just accept that there are those who are more able than others? The 11+ isnt the best way to select this but it does to a certain way. I strongly believe that selective education done properly benefits everyone. Even in our primary and comp schools we have sets dont we? What is that? Selective education.Amber wrote:I don't like selective education at all, as I feel that it does disadvantage so many children.
In addition I strongly support it too as selective education gives the chance to those who would never dream of getting into a decent comprehensive. Perhaps our experience shape us but I feel sad that we found ourselves with the school we have simply because we lived in that part of town at the time. Right now my nearest comprehensive is one that makes me weep at the thought of. It had 19% pass rate and has one of the highest exclusion rate in the country. It was in the newspapers not long ago for the worst attendance too. Yet 1.5miles away there is a very good comp and we would never get in there because we are again living in the wrong part of town. Ability is much fairer rather than basing admission on how much you have in your pocket. Its a fact that decent comprehensives are in prosperous areas where majority of us glee in admiration from afar.
Impossible is Nothing.
Re: Y3 best way forward
oh, poor England. I love England. I just love it. And yes, I've lived in the poorest, roughest bits, I've been attacked (4x that my poor memory recalls for me, maybe more) and robbed, and had my tyres slashed. And survived.
My bro, whose career choice means that he effectively left this country 20 years ago without realising that this was what he was doing, has lived in many European countries and is currently en route to a war-strewn land to live, has given me a perspective which might not chime with yours and which I only call on because it offers ME a differing perspective to my cosy, priviliged little set up.
He has got so fed up with the petty England-bashing crew, the Euro-philes who've not lived there (NOT a pop, Amber, I'm talking Spain / Italy / France etc, not the Nordic countries - I have a friend in Sweden who, well, we won't go there... and a Swiss friend who's escaped the tight, dreary regime there so my opinions are second hand but as informed as I can be without getting on a plane.) Anyway, I think it's very easy to bash this country - sorry OP!!! well off topic - but we have so much to be grateful for and, hey, if it's not all inky dinky to our likey we can sort things out at home, too.
Now, back to OP - someone somewhere said to be wary of Michael Morpurgo - all I'd add to that is to check the print size. He does write for varying ages but the print size is pretty indicative of who it's aimed at. I'd second / third (fourth?) any praise for him and bang on, again, about Harry Horse who is - or was, dead now, don't Google if easily disturbed - one of the best and most "accessible" (cringe) writers for a wide range of ages being that rare thing, a witty writer.
Blimey, I bet you wish you'd never started now. Humour us, it's the silly season!
Amber, careful with that foot, sounds nasty!! XX
My bro, whose career choice means that he effectively left this country 20 years ago without realising that this was what he was doing, has lived in many European countries and is currently en route to a war-strewn land to live, has given me a perspective which might not chime with yours and which I only call on because it offers ME a differing perspective to my cosy, priviliged little set up.
He has got so fed up with the petty England-bashing crew, the Euro-philes who've not lived there (NOT a pop, Amber, I'm talking Spain / Italy / France etc, not the Nordic countries - I have a friend in Sweden who, well, we won't go there... and a Swiss friend who's escaped the tight, dreary regime there so my opinions are second hand but as informed as I can be without getting on a plane.) Anyway, I think it's very easy to bash this country - sorry OP!!! well off topic - but we have so much to be grateful for and, hey, if it's not all inky dinky to our likey we can sort things out at home, too.
Now, back to OP - someone somewhere said to be wary of Michael Morpurgo - all I'd add to that is to check the print size. He does write for varying ages but the print size is pretty indicative of who it's aimed at. I'd second / third (fourth?) any praise for him and bang on, again, about Harry Horse who is - or was, dead now, don't Google if easily disturbed - one of the best and most "accessible" (cringe) writers for a wide range of ages being that rare thing, a witty writer.
Blimey, I bet you wish you'd never started now. Humour us, it's the silly season!
Amber, careful with that foot, sounds nasty!! XX
Last edited by Milla on Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Y3 best way forward
Now I was intrugued about the UNICEF report Amber mentions and found it here http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi ... unicef.pdf
The report highlights one thing that there are far too many who go to school who dont even want to learn. They are forced to stay until 16 and as soon as they get the opportunity to leave they are out.
I honestly expected something half decent from UNICEF but this one is a just a whole load of hollicks.On education, the UK comes 17th out of 21. At the age of 15, British children score relatively well on reading, mathematical and scientific literacy. But more than 30% of 15- to 19-year-olds are not in education or training and are not looking beyond low-skilled work.
The report highlights one thing that there are far too many who go to school who dont even want to learn. They are forced to stay until 16 and as soon as they get the opportunity to leave they are out.
Impossible is Nothing.
Re: Y3 best way forward
oh errr
my dd2 climbs trees, gets split knees, plays with her Fairies, directs her friends in self written plays, rides her bike and has water fights! but then she comes home and does 15 mins of maths with me as she struggles at this subject. When she goes to bed she tells me i am the best mum in the world - is this because i let her fall out of trees with her friends or help her with her maths?
My dd can have the best of both worlds i think!
I always enjoy reading katel and ambers posts but i think somewhere i have read how you both have children that are ahead by quite a margin at school. Mine arn't so to help them feel more confident at primary i have done that little but often bit of work with them. Perhaps your children did not need this. dd1 is in year 10 now and stopped needing the extra bit a few years ago, but i KNOW its helped her acheive all she has accademically at school, just as riding her bike - climbing walls and skimming stones in the river has.
my dd2 climbs trees, gets split knees, plays with her Fairies, directs her friends in self written plays, rides her bike and has water fights! but then she comes home and does 15 mins of maths with me as she struggles at this subject. When she goes to bed she tells me i am the best mum in the world - is this because i let her fall out of trees with her friends or help her with her maths?
My dd can have the best of both worlds i think!
I always enjoy reading katel and ambers posts but i think somewhere i have read how you both have children that are ahead by quite a margin at school. Mine arn't so to help them feel more confident at primary i have done that little but often bit of work with them. Perhaps your children did not need this. dd1 is in year 10 now and stopped needing the extra bit a few years ago, but i KNOW its helped her acheive all she has accademically at school, just as riding her bike - climbing walls and skimming stones in the river has.
Re: Y3 best way forward
Just posting and running, but just to answer "I always enjoy reading katel and ambers posts but i think somewhere i have read how you both have children that are ahead by quite a margin at school." - my current year 4 is, yes. But my current year 9 wasn't. So I've seen both sides of the coin.
I think what i am saying is that of course it's OK to do a little maths at home or whatever to boost a child's confidence . I've always encouraged a LITTLE work over ths summer so that their brains are still ticking over for the new year. BUT my concern is specifically abotu preparationfor the 11+ starting so very early. ANd that was what to OP was about. Not about reading to children or helping them find books that suit them, or providing paper for them to write stories or diaries - but specific 11+ coaching, which is one of the most narrow, soul destroying, anti-educational processes known to man and should, in my opinion be started as late as possible and done as little as possible!
I think what i am saying is that of course it's OK to do a little maths at home or whatever to boost a child's confidence . I've always encouraged a LITTLE work over ths summer so that their brains are still ticking over for the new year. BUT my concern is specifically abotu preparationfor the 11+ starting so very early. ANd that was what to OP was about. Not about reading to children or helping them find books that suit them, or providing paper for them to write stories or diaries - but specific 11+ coaching, which is one of the most narrow, soul destroying, anti-educational processes known to man and should, in my opinion be started as late as possible and done as little as possible!
Re: Y3 best way forward
Hard to disagree with anything in the last few posts on both sides of the coin. Yes Milla, there are things about this country I love too: Radio 4, Michael Morpurgo (he seems to unite us all), the National Trust, Marks and Spencers food shops, my friends, my lovely doctor who seems to have saved my foot...but I do not like the education system. Or the obsession with celebrities and the accompanying loss of values, which I see as pernicious, but that is way OT.
Tiredmum - well yes and no. My children missed a lot of school so came back into the system at some disadvantage - they knew lots of extra stuff but not some of the National Curriculum. I do take your point though, and sure, if they were behind, I would help them (or try - they are not always keen to access my kind of help). That is not the same thing really as exam prep - it is what a loving parent does, end of.
Sherry_d - yes, I do understand that particularly in the south east there are some really awful comprehensives, and it is unfair that all children don't have access to a good one. I just don't think that selecting by ability is any fairer if the system used to carry out that selection is essentially exclusive too (to those not rich or savvy enough to know you have to coach). I am not sure that taking a little group of bright children and educating them separately from others is a good way to mould a society - a society all those children need to live in at some point. There might be more benefit to the whole conferred by spreading the brains around a bit and raising standards for all.
As Katel says, no-one is saying don't read to children (we are currently reading 2 books to 3 children, and only one of them is by MM) or encourage breadth of experience and thought. There are many worthwhile activities which will be enjoyable to children and do not involve trees - cooking, playing chess, gardening, walking in the hills or on a beach, music...come on, no-one is suggesting that kids should just run wild and free all the time. But, as Katel also says, 11+ prep is awful and should be kept to a minimum, particularly in 6 year olds.
Tiredmum - well yes and no. My children missed a lot of school so came back into the system at some disadvantage - they knew lots of extra stuff but not some of the National Curriculum. I do take your point though, and sure, if they were behind, I would help them (or try - they are not always keen to access my kind of help). That is not the same thing really as exam prep - it is what a loving parent does, end of.
Sherry_d - yes, I do understand that particularly in the south east there are some really awful comprehensives, and it is unfair that all children don't have access to a good one. I just don't think that selecting by ability is any fairer if the system used to carry out that selection is essentially exclusive too (to those not rich or savvy enough to know you have to coach). I am not sure that taking a little group of bright children and educating them separately from others is a good way to mould a society - a society all those children need to live in at some point. There might be more benefit to the whole conferred by spreading the brains around a bit and raising standards for all.
As Katel says, no-one is saying don't read to children (we are currently reading 2 books to 3 children, and only one of them is by MM) or encourage breadth of experience and thought. There are many worthwhile activities which will be enjoyable to children and do not involve trees - cooking, playing chess, gardening, walking in the hills or on a beach, music...come on, no-one is suggesting that kids should just run wild and free all the time. But, as Katel also says, 11+ prep is awful and should be kept to a minimum, particularly in 6 year olds.
Re: Y3 best way forward
In response to Katel the o.p actually states that they did not wish to start 11+ papers etc. Those of us who have attempted to give advice have all suggested taking it slowly. It is only the off topic posts that would have any otherwise relaxed person thinking anything too excess was necessary at this stage. I suspect the o.poster is now long gone.
