Chinese parenting

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Waiting_For_Godot
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Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:57 pm

Re: Chinese parenting

Post by Waiting_For_Godot »

Don't get me wrong, the senior schools are very happy that DS is playing the bassoon and db but felt a quicker route would have been a grounding in the violin in order to make quicker progress in the db. The piano is non negotiable though and he has already had a few lessons but he'll be lucky if he gets anywhere close to grade3 by the end of year8 at this late stage. Hopefully he'll get to grade6 bassoon and grade4 double bass but I'm not sure that is enough for a music scholar at the schools we're looking at, regardless of the rarity.

Is genius born or made? The experience of my first son tells me it is born but I do think we can enhance our abilities. I see naturally talented musicians and sportsmen at DS's school and no amount of practice could ever get my son up to their standard.
Yurgen
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Re: Chinese parenting

Post by Yurgen »

mystery wrote:So very true, Yurgen, so why do you think a high calibre public school will be suggesting, for a choral scholarship, will be suggesting to WFG that piano or violin might have been better?
That's not quite what she said. She said they want him to have piano as well, and that having started on the violin might have given him quicker progress on the bass (which I'm not sure I agree with, actually).

It might be different being a choral scholarship, because they're training people to be singers and see the piano as a support to that. For most private school music scholarships though, a grade 5 bassoonist would be more sought after than a grade 7 pianist any day.
mystery
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Re: Chinese parenting

Post by mystery »

Oh I agree absolutely WFG, particularly where we are talking about true "genius".

I think though that where schools and parents might come unstuck is assuming that really high levels of IQ, skill, talent, innate genius, call it what you like, are needed for some pretty high levels of achievement in academia, business world, music etc. But what really is needed is a good dose of intelligence (but nothing incredible), ambition to succeed in that field, hard work, and some luck.

So I always feel that for the majority of people, average "IQ" and above, "genius" is made and not born. But I don't think we are talking here about the same sort of genius as the very rare person with an incredibly high IQ.

And of course, unless you give people a chance to show their "genius" or high ability, nothing great is going to happen. It depresses me to hear parents in one of my children's classes talking about (at 6) their child being an "average" child because this is what the school has told them, and how their child has been graded. And one of these is a parent who themselves got the highest score possible in the 11+, but was clearly never pushed or stretched at school or home. If it were me, I would still be assuming that everything was possible, and give the child all possible opportunities to get up there with the best of them.

High expectations, and the associated work, undoubtedly lead to better results ......... but maybe not true genius.
Yurgen
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Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:15 pm

Re: Chinese parenting

Post by Yurgen »

Waiting_For_Godot wrote:Don't get me wrong, the senior schools are very happy that DS is playing the bassoon and db but felt a quicker route would have been a grounding in the violin in order to make quicker progress in the db. The piano is non negotiable though and he has already had a few lessons but he'll be lucky if he gets anywhere close to grade3 by the end of year8 at this late stage. Hopefully he'll get to grade6 bassoon and grade4 double bass but I'm not sure that is enough for a music scholar at the schools we're looking at, regardless of the rarity.

Is genius born or made? The experience of my first son tells me it is born but I do think we can enhance our abilities. I see naturally talented musicians and sportsmen at DS's school and no amount of practice could ever get my son up to their standard.
Does he enjoy it? If you don't think he's particularly talented, I'm wondering why you want to go down this route.

Presumeably he has a good natural voice if you're looking at choral scholarships? That's often a good indicator of what some people call "musicality" - in terms of hearing pitch accurately etc.

My personal view on the nature/nurture issue WRT music is that there is simply not enough evidence to suggest a primarily genetic basis for genius. (Or rather just ease and fluency, which is presumeably what you're referring to at school. I presume you don't mean that all these kids are touring the world playing concertos when they're 10.)

People often say that certain musicians appear "natural", but this often fails to take account of many factors. One of course is years of sheer hard work. Another is having made wise or fortunate decisions - starting at the right time; having a teacher who inspires you; choosing the right instrument; been encouraged in the right style. (There are many children who are highly talented at music in a jazz/pop direction that have it beaten out of them by parents' insistence that a music education must mean a classical music education, and by many teachers' complete inability to approach the subject in an appropriate way to them).

I also think that music is actually an artificial composite of a number of discrete skills, and my conclusion from years of teaching is that these skills are not particularly correlated in the same individuals. What does it mean when people say someone is "musical"? That they sing in tune? That they sing with a good sound? That they have a good sense of pulse? That they have good physical coordination and can learn complicated patterns of movement quickly? That they play with expressive phrasing? That they have a natural feel for harmony and can write interesting harmonisations?

For any one of these skills, I can show you people who have it to a high degree, including people doing serious professional work, while being mediocre or even plain bad in some of the others. This is why it makes me cringe when parents describe their children (or themselves, often) as "unmusical". It almost always means the child has been judged in one of these areas according to some completely arbitrary benchmark, and found wanting.

Probably more than anything, I think most people don't account for the huge role played by informal learning in the early years. This is often particularly strong in children with musical parents, who grow up in a household where there is always quality music being played and talked about, with musician parents as role models and meeting other musicians all the time. Such children often just "fall into" the role of playing music in a way that seems more "natural" than it is for others, but it's really no more evidence of an innate difference than the fact that somebody whose parents are native French speakers is going to grow speaking better French, with less of an accent, than other people. And of course a child in this environment is more likely to have the chance to show what they gravitate towards fairly early, and have an appropriate instrument and pathway chosen for them.
mystery
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Re: Chinese parenting

Post by mystery »

Oh I agree Yurgen. And it makes me feel bad that I am neglecting my children's musical education. I know they're capable of doing something that they will enjoy, and to a reasonable standard, but I don't know where to start with them.

Myself, I chose to learn the piano at 5, and enjoyed it. I was never going to be any great shakes, but I enjoyed it, and got Grade 8 distinction. I was always left with the feeling that in a different family I'd have gone further with a different instrument maybe, different style, whatever.

My daughter, close to 7 now, loves messing on the piano, xylophone, drums, keyboard etc, singing in the school choir, dancing. But I haven't got the guts to start her off with a teacher of a specific instrument as if she doesn't like it, the teacher, or the lessons, she'll remember that forever.

I'd love it if there was some way she could kind of go on a musical taster experience, have a go at lots of early musical experiences with skilled musicians and decide for herself which way to go at this point in time. But living out in the sticks I'm not sure if this kind of thing exists.

There are so many children who start an instrument in their junior school years, grow to hate it, and then as adults yearn to have learned what they realise with hindsight they would have enjoyed and got on well with, but did not know at the time.

Is there a solution? (Oh just deciding that piano and violin are the thing makes the whole thing so much easier ........... !!!!!!!!!)
Waiting_For_Godot
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Re: Chinese parenting

Post by Waiting_For_Godot »

Mystery, you should start her on one of the county music courses that run on Saturday mornings. She will have the opportunity to find an instrument she enjoys.

Yurgen, DS loves the db, has confidence issues with piano and after exam trauma he is now enjoying his bassoon again. He sings all day long and although he'd rather play pc games all day he does enjoy his music. Personally I'd rather he wasn't a music scholar (and may well not be one) but it might be his only route, like most choristers, into certain senior schools as his academics cannot be relied on! It's some time off but unfortunately when it comes to music it takes years of effort to reach a standard for a 30 minute exam in 3/4 years time! :roll:
mystery
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Re: Chinese parenting

Post by mystery »

WFG that is the best idea, but unfortunately we live miles from it. I'll check again to be sure we're not missing anything like that. Something that ran for a week in London in the summer hols would probably be better.

I think your son is very lucky to have the chorister opportunity. There isn't half so much scope for girls.

He can look forward to being an Oxbridge choral scholar too. They have great fun ...... and I'm not talking about evensong.
Waiting_For_Godot
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Re: Chinese parenting

Post by Waiting_For_Godot »

The RCM run free courses one day a week in the summer holidays. TBH girls are generally very conscientious and compliant so I'm sure she will get on fine anywhere. If you did a little recorder at home with her she could learn some of the treble clef and this could give her confidence to move onto another instrument. I'msure you wouldn't go wrong with a clarinet or flute, assuming she could blow them.
There are a couple of schools that take girl choristers - Salisbury and a few others - but there are many churches in London that have voluntary choirs and they put the kids through RSCM exams.many of these choirs are successful in getting applicants to the final of Young Chorister of the Year and the girls go on to be choral scholars too.
Billie
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Re: Chinese parenting

Post by Billie »

Off topic, sorry, but I think you are in Kent mystery..... Kent Music head office is Maidstone, but they have various centres - all the main towns- where they do weekly wind bands etc. There is a summer school, but it is residential .. at Benenden. They may do a 'taster' instrument session. I know Bromley music always does a try an instrument day in early September where anyone can go along and see what they fancy playing.
If you can get to Bromley their music trust usually has a 3 day Easter wind band course. It is for beginners up to grade 5 and ends in a concert. It is great fun. Some of the kids get to conduct the band. Last year I remember a small girl was there I think with a clarinet who could only play one note, but had a great time. I would highly recommend it.
Yurgen
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Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:15 pm

Re: Chinese parenting

Post by Yurgen »

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