11 Plus Exams Forum

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Yes, I am absolutely sure this piece of research is correct.

One of the reasons could be that there are people who without the independent or grammar education may not have, at some not so good state comprehensives (as opposed to good comprehensives) got sufficiently high grades at GCSE or A level to proceed down the university route. Once in the more rareified air of university (conceptually harder themes to study, and more independent learning required) these students drag down the overall results of the grammar and independent cohort.

It backs up the theory that the people who benefit most from grammar school education are the borderline 11+ passers. As well as improving the grades they might otherwise have got, it makes them more likely to get into university than a similarly intellectually endowed comprehensive school pupils (at a not so good comp I hasten to add - I am sure that there are comps where one has just as high a chance of achieving full potential in grades as at any independent or grammar).

There are some comprehensives - and I'm not talking just about ones located in leafy suburbs with a middle-class intake - where pupils regularly leave with superb results, where discipline is well maintained, and where all children are helped to reach their potential. Many such schools are successful in helping their pupils gain access to top universities. Excellence can be achieved in a comprehensive setting. Having a selective intake certainly makes this easier for a school but it is certainly not essential. All of which rather begs the question of why, if some comprehensives are able to reach such high standards, not all of them can?

You can find quite a bit of similar research if you do a quick scan of the internet. For example, students from sixth form college achieve by far the highest proportion of Firsts (well over 20% iirc), followed by those from comps, then those from indies and finally those from GS (only something like about 7%).

There's obviously another piece of research begging to be done there.

Mike

There's another recent report from the Sutton Trust here: http://www.suttontrust.com/news/news/pr ... -55-times/
It bemoans the small number of children entitled to free school meals who get into top universities. The rate for Oxbridge is 0.8%. Well, that's better than a lot of grammar schools (who also have fewer applicants from independent schools). So presumably they will be set targets for "broadening access" as well...

pippi wrote:There's another recent report from the Sutton Trust here: http://www.suttontrust.com/news/news/pr ... -55-times/
It bemoans the small number of children entitled to free school meals who get into top universities. The rate for Oxbridge is 0.8%. Well, that's better than a lot of grammar schools (who also have fewer applicants from independent schools). So presumably they will be set targets for "broadening access" as well...

Apples and pears! Do Indies offer Free School Meals? Probably not, so to make a fair comparison you need more (public) information on income levels at indies. Unlikely to happen as that might lead to bursary shopping.

Well I'm not surprised they get a better degree because the majority of comp educated kids never take part in societies. In fact without the inde and GS pupils, but more so the inde pupils, all these societies would crumble. That is why an inde educated child remains more employable because whilst at Oxbridge they became president of this society, chairman of that, rowed for their College etc.

Yes, I would agree that a pupil with four A* from a comp will do better than an inde pupil with the same grades but then how many comp pupils actually attain four A*'s compared to inde pupils so I'm not that sure what the point of the report is.

Waiting_For_Godot wrote:Well I'm not surprised they get a better degree because the majority of comp educated kids never take part in societies. In fact without the inde and GS pupils, but more so the inde pupils, all these societies would crumble. That is why an inde educated child remains more employable because whilst at Oxbridge they became president of this society, chairman of that, rowed for their College etc.

Yes, I would agree that a pupil with four A* from a comp will do better than an inde pupil with the same grades but then how many comp pupils actually attain four A*'s compared to inde pupils so I'm not that sure what the point of the report is.

So compies go to uni to work hard and get a good degree, so you move the goalposts and say they have failed because they didn't join the clubs? Where is the evidence of societies memberships by prior school classification leading to enhanced employment prospects, maybe the Sutton Trust could commission some research into this?

More employable? How many, president of this society, chairman of that, rowed for their College etc. are their or maybe you are reccomending a continuation of the values expressed by the freemasons?

I think the child who attended a bog standard comprehensive and then went on to obtain good A level results, get themselves to uni and leave with a first, should actually be deemed more " employable ". That's high achieving !!

By the way, my son is president of the Lego club......can I expect a great future for him ? !

scarlett wrote:By the way, my son is president of the Lego club......can I expect a great future for him ? !

...sadly Building Schools for the Future programme has taken a hit.....