Would you do it again?
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Guest
Wow...that is small. Where are you out of interest?jah wrote:In this area anyway, the closure of selective schools would mean no more than one extra bright child per class.
Where I am in Herts we have 4 grammars and at least four over subscribed, partially selective comps available. Not to mention the religious schools. HABS, Merchant Taylors, St Albans, Mill Hill.
The 'top tables' from my childs local junior alone have all, bar one, been selected.
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jah
I'm in Birmingham, where there are 8 grammars which are 5 grammars of King Edward Foundation, Handsworth Grammar, Bishop Vesey, and Sutton Girls.
Between them they offer 1011 places. There are approx 12,322 year 6 children in Birmingham; so theoretically approx 8% of children in Birmingham could be offered a grammar school place. (Both these figures taken from BCC website)
However, children from neighbouring authorities apply and take up a proportion of the places (no idea how many, but say it's a quarter of the places), that would mean that 750 Birmingham children could get places, or 6% of cohort.
In practice, if there were no grammar schools, a proportion would go to the independent sector or move out of Birmingham, leaving perhaps half to go to Birmingham comps. Say 375 or about 3%. 1 child is the equivalent of about 3% of a class of 30.
A lot of sweeping generalisations there, I know, and I have no idea of the real proportion of non-Birmingham children taking grammar school places or the number that would move or go to the private sector. If no children from outside Brum take up places, and if no-one were to use the private sector or move, then it would be at most 2 or 3 children per class of 30.
Children at our primary scatter every year and last year went to 19 different secondaries, some in Birmingham and some in Sandwell and in Dudley. 10 (out of 60 - 16%) went to grammars. 5 to independent sector. There are a lot of state schools out there who send no children to the grammars. In practice, the would-be grammar school children would end up at a handful of local comps, which would benefit from their presence, and the other schools would be unaffected by the closure of the grammars.
However, my original post makes a better headline!
Between them they offer 1011 places. There are approx 12,322 year 6 children in Birmingham; so theoretically approx 8% of children in Birmingham could be offered a grammar school place. (Both these figures taken from BCC website)
However, children from neighbouring authorities apply and take up a proportion of the places (no idea how many, but say it's a quarter of the places), that would mean that 750 Birmingham children could get places, or 6% of cohort.
In practice, if there were no grammar schools, a proportion would go to the independent sector or move out of Birmingham, leaving perhaps half to go to Birmingham comps. Say 375 or about 3%. 1 child is the equivalent of about 3% of a class of 30.
A lot of sweeping generalisations there, I know, and I have no idea of the real proportion of non-Birmingham children taking grammar school places or the number that would move or go to the private sector. If no children from outside Brum take up places, and if no-one were to use the private sector or move, then it would be at most 2 or 3 children per class of 30.
Children at our primary scatter every year and last year went to 19 different secondaries, some in Birmingham and some in Sandwell and in Dudley. 10 (out of 60 - 16%) went to grammars. 5 to independent sector. There are a lot of state schools out there who send no children to the grammars. In practice, the would-be grammar school children would end up at a handful of local comps, which would benefit from their presence, and the other schools would be unaffected by the closure of the grammars.
However, my original post makes a better headline!
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Guest
LOL...Fair play Jah.. I could not hope to argue against such impressive research. I am the queen of sweeping statements!
Here is an ofstead quote for one of our schools. Interestingly enough, it also has 35% academic selection, and many local pupils are unable to gain places.
'The school draws from a wide area of Watford and is heavily oversubscribed each year. The prior attainment of students as a whole is significantly above average, but relatively few are amonst the highest achieving students as several selective secondary schools are close by.'
Not sure what point I'm making there.
Here is an ofstead quote for one of our schools. Interestingly enough, it also has 35% academic selection, and many local pupils are unable to gain places.
'The school draws from a wide area of Watford and is heavily oversubscribed each year. The prior attainment of students as a whole is significantly above average, but relatively few are amonst the highest achieving students as several selective secondary schools are close by.'
Not sure what point I'm making there.
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jah
I went to a Grammar school in Herts: Hitchin Girls' Grammar School, now Hitchin Girls' School. When it went Comprehensive in the 70s, the school size went from 3 form entry to 5 form entry. Nowadays, it gets 83% of girls through 5A*-C GCSEs. The corresponding boys' school gets 63 %. (I'm not going into the differential between boys and girls here) Say 73% average between the 2 schools.
The other main school in Hitchin, The Priory School, which replaces the old Hitchin High School and Bessemer School, gets 28% A*-C GSCEs. Abolishing Grammars has not made much difference there!
Doubtless other issues come into play. I expect that most of the Priory's pupils live in Hitchin, whereas I expect that more going to the ex-grammars are bussed in from the country. I know that Hertfordshire gets complicated because there are large areas where there are no schools within 3 miles. Everyone in our village had to be bussed out; and we went all over the place Hitchin, St Albans, Harpenden, Hatfield.
The other main school in Hitchin, The Priory School, which replaces the old Hitchin High School and Bessemer School, gets 28% A*-C GSCEs. Abolishing Grammars has not made much difference there!
Doubtless other issues come into play. I expect that most of the Priory's pupils live in Hitchin, whereas I expect that more going to the ex-grammars are bussed in from the country. I know that Hertfordshire gets complicated because there are large areas where there are no schools within 3 miles. Everyone in our village had to be bussed out; and we went all over the place Hitchin, St Albans, Harpenden, Hatfield.
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solimum
Herts
That's interesting jah - before we moved to the midlands we lived in a village in Hertfordshire where the local primary school sent pupils off all round the county too - Welwyn GC and Stevenage were the closest towns, but others went to Hertford, Hitchin, St Albans etc etc. Fortunately for my sanity, we moved when my oldest was still in Year 1 so didn't have to face that particular nightmare.
We now live in a part of Solihull which sends a sprinkling of children each year to the Birmingham grammars - from my experience no more than 2 or 3 each year from a Year 6 of around 100 - rather fewer than those that go private at that age. The vast majority however do proceed to the same local 11-16 comp, which has good results comparable to your Hitchin examples (though historically it was originally the local sec modern so local reputations can change over time) A small number more then move on to Birmingham grammars at 6th form, including my son.
The cross-authority traffic is not all one-way though. As a fan of statistics you might find this spreadsheet interesting
http://www.dfes.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR ... _2006b.xls
It shows that about 4,300 pupils in Birmingham schools live outside the LA, the biggest number coming from Sandwell. Obvioulsy most of these are not to the grammars though, but reflect schools closer to other areas. Nearly 6,900 Birmingham-resident pupils go outside the city to school, almost half to Solihull (NB these are only state schools, not independents I think). On my son's 25-minute journey to school on the occasions when I drive (or let him put the L-plates on) we pass through four different local education authorities!
Another way to look at out-of-area pupils coming into the Birmingham grammars would be to look at the bus routes..
We now live in a part of Solihull which sends a sprinkling of children each year to the Birmingham grammars - from my experience no more than 2 or 3 each year from a Year 6 of around 100 - rather fewer than those that go private at that age. The vast majority however do proceed to the same local 11-16 comp, which has good results comparable to your Hitchin examples (though historically it was originally the local sec modern so local reputations can change over time) A small number more then move on to Birmingham grammars at 6th form, including my son.
The cross-authority traffic is not all one-way though. As a fan of statistics you might find this spreadsheet interesting
http://www.dfes.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR ... _2006b.xls
It shows that about 4,300 pupils in Birmingham schools live outside the LA, the biggest number coming from Sandwell. Obvioulsy most of these are not to the grammars though, but reflect schools closer to other areas. Nearly 6,900 Birmingham-resident pupils go outside the city to school, almost half to Solihull (NB these are only state schools, not independents I think). On my son's 25-minute journey to school on the occasions when I drive (or let him put the L-plates on) we pass through four different local education authorities!
Another way to look at out-of-area pupils coming into the Birmingham grammars would be to look at the bus routes..
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jah
I also have just survived..., I did everything myself. I found it extremely time-consuming and stressfull.
I really would not want to do this again but no doubt I will. The second is not the same kind of person but equally as bright, so I will adapt accordingly. The waiting was unbearable.
Now I know what people mean when they say, "we've all been through it."
For now, I will just absorb the great outcome. I hope your outcome was pleasing for your child also. They will work hard and do well if they are happy, most importantly.
The whole process can make us loose sight of this at times.
I really would not want to do this again but no doubt I will. The second is not the same kind of person but equally as bright, so I will adapt accordingly. The waiting was unbearable.
Now I know what people mean when they say, "we've all been through it."
For now, I will just absorb the great outcome. I hope your outcome was pleasing for your child also. They will work hard and do well if they are happy, most importantly.
The whole process can make us loose sight of this at times.
Re: Would you do it again?
Not only would I ? I am! and only one year later! I have only 13 months difference between my first two boys, my third being only 4. I think that it depends on the child to be honest. My year 6 son is very laid back and sat 3 private entrance exams plus the 11 plus, grade 3 piano and cello. He took it all in his stride and was not stressed at all hence why I was happy for him to do them all. He passed all and has decided to take his 11 plus place. My second son however is slightly under presure of achieving based on HIS expectation of failure and because his older brother has achieved. I am therefore slightly more worried and need to treat him with kid gloves. He is adamant though that he wants to go to the same school as his brother so in answer to your question, most definately yes...we will be doing it all over again....and I have only just recovered from this experience...Thank goodness that with my last son we will all have the benefit of hindsite !!!!!Anonymous wrote:Having just survived the 11+ experience, I was curious,as to whether you would go through it again and if the answer is yes, what would you do/not do the second time round? If the answer is no - why?
I found the whole experience quite hard. I am not sure I want or could cope with going through it all again, with my second child, yet I feel I owe her the same chances/choices.
I just wondered if anyone feels the same way as me.