An ethical question

[2Girlsmum]

At HBS last week there were tutors outside the test asking questions. THAT'S unethical. They no doubt glean a great deal of information talking to pupils after tests, not just at HBS, and not just on the day. Some may prep late sitters with that knowledge (shudders) but they certainty collect the info for future years if they are good at their job, regardless of the moral implications. People try to be generally vague about the test content (less maths, hard VR etc) and help each other. I think that it supports DIY parents like me and I know that I would have been less able to know what was required without it.

[mystery]

Back to Amber's original question. The site was set up to help people with entrance exams. Tutors do this too. So this site is carrying out its stated purpose. As long as that purpose is ethical, and it carries out its purpose ethically, the site is behaving ethically.

Tutors that take people's money without preparing a lesson as reasonably relevant to the exam as is ethically possible are not ethical.

The tutors on here that I am aware of generally seem to provide useful info on here as well as maybe learning from it themselves.

The thing I find unethical is describing any exam as tutor proof when it is not as it prevents the more naive from even giving it a moment's thought when they might actually need to. C e m website does not make this claim.

[Amber]

The thing I find unethical is describing any exam as tutor proof when it is not as it prevents the more naive from even giving it a moment's thought when they might actually need to. C e m website does not make this claim.

And to be clear, nor do I.

[mystery]

No. But some of the blurb in the newspapers does and the blurb on some councils' websites does verge on saying this too.

But turning it on its head, if it was truly tutor proof none of the unethical tutor tricks would make a difference - the company that could produce tutor proof tests would always be one step ahead of tutor (or parent) lack of ethics.

[CarpeDiem]

What 'prep' went on in years gone by? Not much I gather and many didn't even know they were sitting the 11+! A much fairer system if you ask me but the competition has just got so fierce it has increased the desperation to get the children tutored and from an early age to give them the best chance.

I agree something has got to change to get things back to an even keel where every DC has a chance regardless of background. My DD did a CEM test for entry to an independent. It was computer based and because the programme was flexible depending on the answer a child selected the next question will alter so each childs experience would be different. The programme challenges the knowledge of particular types of questions by asking it different ways to check their understanding. This type of test would be a lot harder to prep for and for the record my DC loved doing it unlike the GL type paper tests she also did.

My issue is whether it is right to do it, particularly as the site is used by tutors

No its not however nothing can be done about the desperation some people feel to try to gain an advantage in this IMO unfair system. The more it is possible to gain an advantage the more people will try to gain one. Simple answer is to reform the system in some way so that any advantage gained is minimised. Even some of the GS/Independents are not happy with the ways things are going as it is getting harder for them to select the pupils that really would benefit from the GS environment.

[mystery]

I think if you read wiki about the eleven plus you will see that there have always been concerns about fairness of tests and this was one of the reasons for the demise of selective schools. Another reason is because it may not be a vote catcher with the overwhelming majority. A lot of grammar schools closed during Margaret thatcher's time.

Talking about fair tests is a vote catcher in conservative areas which have maintained grammar school system as it makes the system sound more appealing all round.

When did the first private tutor teach a primary school. I remember a friens's father doing it in the 70s. When was the heyday of no private tutors we dream of?

[CarpeDiem]

When did the first private tutor teach a primary school. I remember a friens's father doing it in the 70s. When was the heyday of no private tutors we dream of?

Yes I remember some children having a tutor in the 70s but only because they were genuinely struggling with a subject not to gain them an 11+ pass. In Trafford/Cheshire East tutoring is edemic and not just to help out struggling children. To my horror my nice quiet little market town has just had a new tutoring centre open in the (small) town square, a sign of the times I am afraid. It seems that nowadays no one relies on their DC to be self motivated or on schools to teach them to a decent standard.
I wonder what happens to the DC when they go to university and have to stand on their own two feet.

[mystery]

Bond books have been around for decades. Tutors have been around for decades ( centuries even) catering for all abilities. Parents who can teach their children to 11 plus standard have been around for decades. there are good tutors and bad tutors, educated and uneducated parents. None of this is new. Feeling very old.

I know several tutored / prepared students who have done extremely well at university.

[sherry_d]

The current economy is making thing worse too. This week Sunday times had an article of how intense and how many more places per applicants London, Birmingham and surrounding grammar schools had this year. Most people are feeling the pinch and with private school fees soaring each year, so will the competition for grammar schools.

Coming from a different education system, this website was a last minute lifesaver in opening my eyes to the whole 11+ shebang. At least the information is shared here openly and for free. I am not even sure why I still pop round to be honest, perhaps it's an addiction that needs sorting out.

[Looking for help]

And finally (this is kind of a personal question)- if one is a member of this forum, does it imply that one is a supporter of the system and ought those with differing views really make themselves scarce? (I can take it - I have asked!)

I have been a member for some time as you know Amber and I would say I am absolutely NOT a supporter of selective education .

We kind of happened by the gs in the beginning with my oldest and then we were stuck in a moment we couldn't get out of.

I absolutely believe hand on heart that gs do nothing to enhance or improve anything. And this is as my fourth has just gone into y11.

If I had my time over again the one thing I would not have done is spend any time preparing for 11 plus exams.

There is so much more to life than passing or failing an exam at 11. The most important thing is support at home and a love of learning.