Charging fee for 'popular' State Schools.

[Amber]

I stand by my original assertion that anything which draws attention to the dreadful inequalities in our education system is worth a thought. Personally I wouldn't care who said it- Thatcher from beyond the grave or Robert Mugabe - there are problems to do with social justice in this country and the education system perpetuates them. The report is not just Seldon on his personal soapbox - the Social Market Foundation which produced it takes 'full responsibility for its contents' and includes respected figures like Lord Hutton, Nicola Horlick and Gillian Shepherd.

To be clear - I disagree with almost everything in this report, not least because there is no radical proposal in it to abolish independent and selective education. I am no fan of Seldon and think if he really wanted to change things he could leave the private school sector and join the Local Schools Network (imagine! Not sure they would want him ). It is a bit depressing though if some readers on a forum dedicated to education can only look at the sound bite headline and not beyond it- goodness knows what will be the reception from Daily Mail readers then! But disagreeing with the solutions is not the same as failing to acknowledge the (major) problems. Even Wilshaw has been expressing concern recently - I am starting to despair that there will ever be a mass will to do something about it before we have alienated half of society from education. Reports like this are supposed to stimulate thought and discussion, not to be swallowed whole, and big questions need to be asked about what is going on.

Perhaps those who are saying that this report is not worth even a passing thought on account of the man who wrote it being an idiot, misguided, wealthy, manipulative, having his own agenda (shock! public figure has own agenda ) etc could advise those of us who care about social justice in education who to choose as a spokesperson who would be listened to?

[kenyancowgirl]

Amber: "could advise those of us who care about social justice in education who to choose as a spokesperson who would be listened to?"

....I must confess, that if you got Benedict Cummerbatch and Guy Martin on a soapbox, I would be in heaven....

[southbucks3]

No to cumberbatch as he dyes his red hair black...yes I am that shallow.

I would personally choose Amber..not that I fancy her, but she seems well informed (most if the time) seconding that if the foundation wrote the paper as a joint commission then get a few more faces (including some attractive ones) to front it.

[KenR]

Seldon said parents who were the top earners would pay the fee the state pays, which would be about £6,000.

The problem is that it's easy for many of the top earners to get round this problem:

Many sure you do some consultancy of the side or have a couple of non Exec roles.

Set your set yourself up as a "Professional Services" Limited Company

Make sure that all payments and contracts from organisations are with the company and not you

Only pay yourself the minimum wage (strictly speaking) the Lower Earnings Limit(LEL) so you don't pay even NI as well as PAYE Income Tax

If you are only going to "earn" up to £185K per annum then make sure you are registered for flat rate VAT (gives you an extra 5.5% kick back - charge 20% but only pay 14.5%)

Make sure you have heavy expenses which are claimed before corporation tax

Make sure you spouse is a Company Director

Make sure the company pays a large before tax contribution into your personal pension fund

Take all profit out of the company as dividend (between you and your spouse)

Make sure you accountant explores all VCT and off-shore investment options.

Then your child takes a place in a good school safe in the knowledge that it's only the "new money" Middle Class parents who will get stung

[southbucks3]

You have forgotten to invest in rental sector properties for multiple occupation Kenr...other than that you sound very well advised, are you loaded?

Btw there are several "New" money arrogants round here pulling all those scams. One chap who's son is in my boys grammar paid "about £17" tax last year, has a holiday property in Devon, and he's on shooting parties every month at 2k a pop, but hey he pays his lads £250 a year rugby top up! Perhaps if we mopped up some funds from this lot we could afford better schooling....ever decreasing circles!

[tiffinboys]

Sorry! Bit old fashioned, so if I was against grammars, selective education, streaming, setting etc etc and talk of social inequalities in education due to these methods, I would not choose to send my own children to selective grammar schools or schools which follow streaming, fast-track, settings or independent schools. In that way, parents of David and Ed Milliband did admirably send their kids to non-selective schools, rather than selectives or independents e.g. Shirley Williams, Ruth Kelly, Diane Abbots, Harriet Harmon etc. etc.

[tiffinboys]

KenR, you seems to have very good 'professional' advise.

[pushymother]

Seldon said parents who were the top earners would pay the fee the state pays, which would be about £6,000.

The problem is that it's easy for many of the top earners to get round this problem:

Many sure you do some consultancy of the side or have a couple of non Exec roles.

Set your set yourself up as a "Professional Services" Limited Company

Make sure that all payments and contracts from organisations are with the company and not you

Only pay yourself the minimum wage (strictly speaking) the Lower Earnings Limit(LEL) so you don't pay even NI as well as PAYE Income Tax

If you are only going to "earn" up to £185K per annum then make sure you are registered for flat rate VAT (gives you an extra 5.5% kick back - charge 20% but only pay 14.5%)

Make sure you have heavy expenses which are claimed before corporation tax

Make sure you spouse is a Company Director

Make sure the company pays a large before tax contribution into your personal pension fund

Take all profit out of the company as dividend (between you and your spouse)

Make sure you accountant explores all VCT and off-shore investment options.

Then your child takes a place in a good school safe in the knowledge that it's only the "new money" Middle Class parents who will get stung

Please don't depress me further! My DH and I are stuck with PAYE and watch half of our income fund Benefits street. Tax avoidance is something we mere mortals only dream about...

[mystery]

I stand by my original assertion that anything which draws attention to the dreadful inequalities in our education system is worth a thought. Personally I wouldn't care who said it- Thatcher from beyond the grave or Robert Mugabe - there are problems to do with social justice in this country and the education system perpetuates them. The report is not just Seldon on his personal soapbox - the Social Market Foundation which produced it takes 'full responsibility for its contents' and includes respected figures like Lord Hutton, Nicola Horlick and Gillian Shepherd.

To be clear - I disagree with almost everything in this report, not least because there is no radical proposal in it to abolish independent and selective education. I am no fan of Seldon and think if he really wanted to change things he could leave the private school sector and join the Local Schools Network (imagine! Not sure they would want him ). It is a bit depressing though if some readers on a forum dedicated to education can only look at the sound bite headline and not beyond it- goodness knows what will be the reception from Daily Mail readers then! But disagreeing with the solutions is not the same as failing to acknowledge the (major) problems. Even Wilshaw has been expressing concern recently - I am starting to despair that there will ever be a mass will to do something about it before we have alienated half of society from education. Reports like this are supposed to stimulate thought and discussion, not to be swallowed whole, and big questions need to be asked about what is going on.

Perhaps those who are saying that this report is not worth even a passing thought on account of the man who wrote it being an idiot, misguided, wealthy, manipulative, having his own agenda (shock! public figure has own agenda ) etc could advise those of us who care about social justice in education who to choose as a spokesperson who would be listened to?

Yes. Anyone who follows their ideology in their own life.

If you read what I wrote Amber I am not dismissing it because it is seldon writing it but because it is full of illogical stuff. He did not put in the paying bit as a publicity stunt - there is a grid in there which says that of his paltry four suggestions to solve the problem, which is in itself not well identified, that this is the one that would have the most impact and he gives a very poor analysis of the changes in choices it would lead to. His other suggestions are rather half hearted too.

I hope no public money went in to this research and I rather feel anyone who did put their time and effort into it would have been better off doing some voluntary tuition for a child receiving a poor education.

[Amber]

I was not accusing you of anything at all mystery. I can see that you have read it and engaged with it which gives you the right to criticise it in any way you choose. And I am not an apologist for Seldon either - my only admiration for it stems with its attempt to identify and tackle the problem of social inequality.

I fear that anyone trying to follow an ideology based on equality in education would have to move to another country when their children reached school age in order to satisfy your criterion, sadly - it isn't really possible to do it here without making one's children shoulder the burden of an ideology which is out of step with the prevailing ethos. A teacher friend of mine has just moved to Scandinavia solely so that her children can go to school there instead of here - maybe she would be a good candidate.