which grammars are super selective??

Discussion of the 11 Plus

Moderators: Section Moderators, Forum Moderators

11 Plus Platform - Online Practice Makes Perfect - Try Now
Amber
Posts: 8058
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:59 am

Re: which grammars are super selective??

Post by Amber »

Bucks has an opt-out system and takes around 30%- not superselective. Gloucestershire has an opt-in system and takes around 5% yes. I always thought that is what defines super-selective, not whether it is actually harder to pass the test itself. Horrible term. My children are at a Gloucestershire. GS which claims to take children from the top 40% of the ability range. How the maths works there is anybody's guess but I assume it reflects the fact that in a superselective area most children don't actually get as far as sitting the test.
2Girlsmum
Posts: 1034
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:41 pm

Re: which grammars are super selective??

Post by 2Girlsmum »

But the scores are much higher because most children never try. In DD1's very bright class 8 children out of 30 sat tests at 2-3 schools each, and 4 gained places at their first choice. The others didn't secure a place at any of the schools, even from waiting lists. This year in DD2's class of 30 there were 7 children who sat tests at between 1-3 schools each. Only DD2 gained a place, and the others are too far down rankings for the reserve list, but most would have gained places (as a comparison) in most Kent/Medway Grammars. There are 4 selective schools for all of North London (4+ million population?). There are 38 Grammar schools in Kent for less than 2 million population so obviously the pass mark will be lower (as shown here in their table showing raw scores standardized https://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/schoo ... nt-11-plus" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) You could say a that superselectives are a creation of educational policies from the 1970's when most Grammar Schools changed status.
Last edited by 2Girlsmum on Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Daogroupie
Posts: 11099
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:01 pm
Location: Herts

Re: which grammars are super selective??

Post by Daogroupie »

This is underlined by a family who moved from Kent to Herts during the 11 plus process. Their dd came in the top 2% in the Kent 11 plus so they thought she would easily get a place in a local indy in Herts Everyone was telling them that their dd was really gifted and would get into any selective school with no preparation. But she could not get anywhere near, not even in the top 400. The family thought there had been some admin problem and went personally to the school. But there was no mistake. Her papers and particularly her English were not in the same league. It is a simple supply and demand issue. 800 students sit City girls for 60 places, 600 students sit Habs girls for 100 places. 1,000 students sit DAO for 65 places. 2,200 students sit HBS for 93 places. 2000 students sit QE for 180 places. 1500 students sit Latymer for 180 spaces. The ones who get offered a place will be way beyond the average level of a student getting a place in Kent or Buckinghamshire. This is what super selective means. It is the ratio of applicants to admissions. DG
Amber
Posts: 8058
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:59 am

Re: which grammars are super selective??

Post by Amber »

I am not sure whether you intended that post to come across as it did, DAO, but the implication seems to be that a child considered top 2% in Kent is not anywhere near that in Herts. Surely there is not such a genetic micro-pool of intellectual brilliance in Herts which would skew the population in this way? Nor indeed a perfectly targeted and resourced tutoring network working with all potential top-2%ers to ensure entry to these astonishingly brilliant schools. I know you love DAO but I am sure the odd mere mortal manages to sneak in there occasionally. Apart from anything else, DAO is free and the lower ratio ones on your list aren't - so many people probably hope their child will get in and save them a few quid. Aside from that small group who don't apply to indie because they might not be able to afford it. As I see it it isn't the case that the ones who get in will be 'way beyond the average level of those who get in' in less illustrious counties - surely they will be of a very similar average level, given that they are all taken from a normal population. Otherwise one assumes that they would all have outgrown secondary school by Year 9 and be working on their doctorates. Come on, give the rest of the country a glimmer of hope. :|
mystery
Posts: 8927
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:56 pm

Re: which grammars are super selective??

Post by mystery »

First of all we would have to look at the top 2% statement - top 2% of what?

But yes, I can imagine that a child who was towards the top in the Kent test may not be for some of these other schools. For a start, you don't have to be able to write a word to pass the Kent test. For a lot of these other tests you do.

It doesn't show who is the most "intelligent" child though. But the basic sentiment is correct- it is pretty easy to get into a Kent grammar than in another area where there are only superselectives. Also, Kent grammar results can be pretty ropy - depending on the school.

To me a superselective is one where children are ranked according to their score in the exam and children have priority for places according to their score. But yes, if all Kent grammar schools started to admit on this basis then would they still be "superselective" --- so maybe the definition is less clearcut than that - it depends on supply and demand too.
southbucks3
Posts: 3579
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:59 am

Re: which grammars are super selective??

Post by southbucks3 »

Our test is not really academic in bucks Amber...they have to be able to strip down a tractor engine, plait a corn dolly and milk a cow. Faced with the prospect of sitting a herts test the top 2% of children that passed our bucks 11+ test would start searching for udders on the invigilators and use the test paper to make roll up ciggie papers.

With thousands sitting test papers at super selective schools, surely someone must realise that there is so little to differentiate the top few hundred academically, they may as well draw straws.
Last edited by southbucks3 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mitasol
Posts: 2756
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:59 am

Re: which grammars are super selective??

Post by mitasol »

I don't think the term was used to indicate how selective a school was. It was used to indicate the type of selection.

In most cases people need to read the admissions rules to understand how children will be admitted. Super selective schools selected admission by score in rank order.

Perhaps if people are wanting to indicate how selective their school is we could incorporate extra classifications. SuperExtraSelective and MEGAselective. :roll:
2Girlsmum
Posts: 1034
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:41 pm

Re: which grammars are super selective??

Post by 2Girlsmum »

I think that the expectation of scores in the London area and Kent are different, and so less preparation is expected in Kent to gain a place. Both my daughters sat the Sutton Grammar test when they had done almost no work for their 11+ test. They were both borderline. A few months later after a lot of hard work they came near the top both in 2010/11 and this 2013/14 intake for two North London schools which are about equal in level required. I'm not saying that children in Kent are less intelligent or academically able....I'm saying they need to be gaining much higher marks in the exams sat! Passing an 11+ exam in an area like ours requires a very bright/academically able child (the pool of children is 60-80 times bigger based on population and number of schools than in Kent) and that child needs to train like an athlete to sit the test or tests. DD2 sat English (2 comprehensions, an essay and grammar sections) , Maths, VR and NVR in one day at her first choice school. The following day she sat 2 CEM tests at Latymer, which were harder than most. Many children failed because they were too slow and hadn't practiced with a stopwatch at home (like her best friend who is bright with 5a's at school). Many children hadn't practiced back to back tests for stamina and so were shattered by the afternoon.....often with a headache. Many children had only studied using Bond tests, which are too easy and don't, in the case of NVR, cover the correct types. Some didn't plan toilet requirements and lost valuable minutes. Look at the league tables. Look at the Parent power Schools of the year in the Sunday Times. In the last few years 3 out of the 4 north London schools were chosen, including my daughters school this year. All the league tables vary by the system used, but for both GCSE and A level results these schools are usually at or near the top. If your child isn't scoring over 90% in all the harder papers then there isn't much chance of a place.
Amber
Posts: 8058
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:59 am

Re: which grammars are super selective??

Post by Amber »

southbucks3 wrote:With thousands sitting test papers at super selective schools, surely someone must realise that there is so little to differentiate the top few hundred academically, they may as well draw straws.
That is true. I was told at one point that there may be 20 or 30 children here sitting on the exact same score, which would amount to less than a quarter of an actual raw mark. The rank order thing they use here is standardised differently depending on the cohort ticking the box for different schools - when my younger son sat the test two years ago he scored 2 points above a friend for one school and 2 below that same friend for another school, even though they only sat one test. My hunch there was that they actually scored exactly the same in terms of raw marks. So appearing to miss out on a pass score by a mighty standardised 3( 3 what? 3 Glos Test Marks - who knows what that actually means?) might only mean a tiny little bit of a question wrong.

Love your suggestion Mitasol. You could award a prize for Most Selective of All - posters whose children gained entry to this school could have a special colour for their usernames and maybe a little tune which played when you clicked on their posts.
marigold
Posts: 656
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:14 pm
Location: essex

Re: which grammars are super selective??

Post by marigold »

Amber please delete your suggestion, I am heartbroken I will not be able to compete for a coloured username.
Regular users of the forum may have noticed I rarely post nowdays. This is because the super selective grammars my children attend are now no longer strictly super selective, they have introduced a catchment area for a proportion of admissions, long after my children sat the test of course. I can no longer feel superior and in fact rarely leave the house because of the shame of it all.
Post Reply