The Advantages of pushing hard for the 11+

[ginx]

My ds is in year 5, a boisterous boy who prefers football, being outside, and sawing wood and making a terrible mess everywhere he goes!

I've started doing some work with him. To my surprise he doesn't moan - too much, whilst the work is in areas he can do. He is very competitive, all his close friends - are having coaching, at Sainsbury's, or sharing a tutor.

Because his friends are working hard (I hear terrible stories of four hours a weekend, for example), he is not moaning about doing the work he finds relatively easy. He loves maths and enjoys showing off to us the work he can do. I have no idea if he will pass, he is average but good at maths and very poor at comprehension. But he doesn't mind working because he wants to keep up with his friends.

However, he only does a few ten minute papers a week. At the moment he is refusing to do any comprehension because he gets it all wrong and won't accept advice.

Whilst he enjoys showing off his knowledge, for ten minutes a time a few times a week, I don't think it hurts him. As we have books with answers and explanations, he is learning.

However, I think there could be a thread on "the Disadvantages of pushing hard for the 11+". Ive seen children ill with pressure. One girl was promised a puppy - and didn't pass - or get the puppy - and was devastated. Other have cried on results day. Parents have cried. Ds's friends have missed out on parties etc because they are at tutoring sessions. I think that's awful. Dc have been bullied at school. Dc have bragged about passing - and then not reached the mark.

So with my oldest daughter, who got level 3's in key stage 2, we simply decided not to enter her; she didn't want to do it; what was the point? We just helped as much as we could with school homework. I'm very proud, she now has ten GCSE's. She is very glad she didn't do the 11+. It is not for everyone, and I'm not sure there are always advantages of pushing hard for the 11+. Gentle pushing where it will help, not "pushing hard", in my opinion.

[PurpleDuck]

If they really do need outside help to cope with the pace of work in the school in Key Stage 3, then they are in the wrong place.

Indeed.

Ive seen children ill with pressure. One girl was promised a puppy - and didn't pass - or get the puppy - and was devastated. Other have cried on results day. Parents have cried. Ds's friends have missed out on parties etc because they are at tutoring sessions. I think that's awful. Dc have been bullied at school. Dc have bragged about passing - and then not reached the mark.

This is just wrong - and very sad...

[SlighlyStressedMum]

My year 6 is still having (fairly laid back) tuition. Not because he can't keep up but because his school is quite frankly rubbish so fail to teach the very able at the level they require. He still wants to go, it's two hours a week and no homework so I will continue till he wants to stop. And I will admit that in the back of my mind is the fact that (should he get into his chosen grammar) the majority of the others boys will be from Independent schools and I want him to start on the same level.

However saying all that, I too have seen children intensively coached, stressed. I have heard parents in the queue for the exam telling their children how they have no choice but to pass and trying to cram last minute, and heard stories of children in tears and vomiting from stress during the exam. So very wrong imo.

[mattsurf]

I can see the logic of continuing to do some extra work in year 6, especially if your DC is not being stretched at school. However, we did not do so, partly because DD's primary school provided lunchtime classes and set extra homework for children doing Level 6 SATs. DD was being sufficiently stretched at school, therefore extra tuition wouldn't have given much benefit.

It is part of a cycle: if we had not done extra work and tutor in year 5, it is unlikely that DD would have been entered for L6 SATS and would not have been stretched at school. It is really interesting looking at the class results at the end of year 6 - 75% of the class were working at level 4, which is the correct standard for an 11 year old, however, 25% of the class were working at level 6 which is the expected level for a 14 year old, and almost all of the children at that level had received coaching in year 5.

I would be really interested to see if there was any research:
1. Do primary schools in grammar school catchment areas get more level 5 and level 6 SATS results?
2. Do counties with Grammar Schools get better GCSE results accross the entire population of children?

My hypothesis is that it is not just the GS education that drives better results, it is partly down to the extra work done by children in year 5 (some of whom pass the 11+) that gives them such a good head start that they carry on the improvements made through to GCSE's.

[Amber]

I agree with your post ginx, all of it.

My DD didn't do 11 plus either. We have never 'pushed hard' for anything here. She never had a day's coaching in any subject at all, ever, and didn't go to any kind of high achieving school either until after her GCSEs (her choice - thank goodness). She has outstanding GCSE and A level results by anyone's standards. Signs are good for the younger brothers too with zero 'pushing hard' by anyone other than themselves. None of my kids are 'boffs' and all lead astonishingly full and varied lives with only a small amount of time spent on study, apart from at exam times. It can be done - you just have to allow them to be!

It always comes down to the same thing for me - why is this about the parents and not the child? Why are children seen in terms of what they can achieve academically? What is the end result that people who tutor into secondary school are hoping for? Why do bright children 'need' pushing? I just genuinely don't get it - they should be able to 'push' themselves if they are interested and if they are not then fair play to them. If we could only refocus education away from 'outcomes' and challenge this culture of constant improvement which has become hegemonic, then maybe the drive to achieve higher grades (and remember there is a top limit even on these supposed super-bright children - I don't think anyone has surpassed the limit of human intelligence yet as a result of parental pushing - would you want it even if it could be done?) would be seen in terms of what it is - vicarious satisfaction for parents and nothing to do with children.

I am utterly astonished to see on the university thread that there are parents researching university courses for their children. At what point does one hand over responsibility to the child? Take care, I say...for one day your child will become an adult and you will be kind of hoping that they can take their own decisions then. If parents have pushed, steered, cajoled, done the research for them, whatever - how on earth will they ever learn who they are?

Am on a cocktail of powerful drugs ATM (thanks PurpleDuck - I will be OK I think) so this may be a more psychedelic rant than usual but the message is the same - set your children free!

[kenyancowgirl]

This may be for a number of reasons.When my dd finished her 11 plus exams in September 2014 in year 6 we decided after discussing it with her to continue her tutoring until January 2015 with her friends who were all sitting Independent exams.This was one hour per week on Maths with some extension work and English, in particular imaginative writing which they had not done much of in school.Others were doing other work with their parents.After January again in consultation with our dd we continued with some of the children until July. We asked for work in English.Prior to being a tutor her teacher taught English to primary school children and he teaches English in his tutoring to children in their early teens.

Now our dd is in year 7 at her Grammar school we don't have any tutoring but she is recieving extra lessons for her vocabulary from her school.

Not a great endorsement of your English tutor, if your dd has had over 2 years tutoring and still needs extra lessons in vocabulary from her school....

[DC17C]

I agree with your post ginx, all of it.

My DD didn't do 11 plus either. We have never 'pushed hard' for anything here. She never had a day's coaching in any subject at all, ever, and didn't go to any kind of high achieving school either until after her GCSEs (her choice - thank goodness). She has outstanding GCSE and A level results by anyone's standards. Signs are good for the younger brothers too with zero 'pushing hard' by anyone other than themselves. None of my kids are 'boffs' and all lead astonishingly full and varied lives with only a small amount of time spent on study, apart from at exam times. It can be done - you just have to allow them to be!

It always comes down to the same thing for me - why is this about the parents and not the child? Why are children seen in terms of what they can achieve academically? What is the end result that people who tutor into secondary school are hoping for? Why do bright children 'need' pushing? I just genuinely don't get it - they should be able to 'push' themselves if they are interested and if they are not then fair play to them. If we could only refocus education away from 'outcomes' and challenge this culture of constant improvement which has become hegemonic, then maybe the drive to achieve higher grades (and remember there is a top limit even on these supposed super-bright children - I don't think anyone has surpassed the limit of human intelligence yet as a result of parental pushing - would you want it even if it could be done?) would be seen in terms of what it is - vicarious satisfaction for parents and nothing to do with children.

I am utterly astonished to see on the university thread that there are parents researching university courses for their children. At what point does one hand over responsibility to the child? Take care, I say...for one day your child will become an adult and you will be kind of hoping that they can take their own decisions then. If parents have pushed, steered, cajoled, done the research for them, whatever - how on earth will they ever learn who they are?

Am on a cocktail of powerful drugs ATM (thanks PurpleDuck - I will be OK I think) so this may be a more psychedelic rant than usual but the message is the same - set your children free!

I'm drugged up to due to cold but agree with all this .......

[Yamin151]

I agree with your post ginx, all of it.

My DD didn't do 11 plus either. We have never 'pushed hard' for anything here. She never had a day's coaching in any subject at all, ever, and didn't go to any kind of high achieving school either until after her GCSEs (her choice - thank goodness). She has outstanding GCSE and A level results by anyone's standards. Signs are good for the younger brothers too with zero 'pushing hard' by anyone other than themselves. None of my kids are 'boffs' and all lead astonishingly full and varied lives with only a small amount of time spent on study, apart from at exam times. It can be done - you just have to allow them to be!

It always comes down to the same thing for me - why is this about the parents and not the child? Why are children seen in terms of what they can achieve academically? What is the end result that people who tutor into secondary school are hoping for? Why do bright children 'need' pushing? I just genuinely don't get it - they should be able to 'push' themselves if they are interested and if they are not then fair play to them. If we could only refocus education away from 'outcomes' and challenge this culture of constant improvement which has become hegemonic, then maybe the drive to achieve higher grades (and remember there is a top limit even on these supposed super-bright children - I don't think anyone has surpassed the limit of human intelligence yet as a result of parental pushing - would you want it even if it could be done?) would be seen in terms of what it is - vicarious satisfaction for parents and nothing to do with children.

I am utterly astonished to see on the university thread that there are parents researching university courses for their children. At what point does one hand over responsibility to the child? Take care, I say...for one day your child will become an adult and you will be kind of hoping that they can take their own decisions then. If parents have pushed, steered, cajoled, done the research for them, whatever - how on earth will they ever learn who they are?

Am on a cocktail of powerful drugs ATM (thanks PurpleDuck - I will be OK I think) so this may be a more psychedelic rant than usual but the message is the same - set your children free!

Yes yes yes!!

[southbucks3]

Another plus one for ginx

On another note, the child I tutored most, didn't pass, although he later won on appeal, he and his older brother, both tutored for a year, both fuss about homework.
The child who hid under the table or ran into the woods, every time I asked him to do his weekly hour with me, so I gave up trying completely, until that is he declared he wanted to "have a go so he didn't get an embarrassing mark", six weeks before the test, passed no problems. He is doing rather well and does his homework without any cajoling, but still grumbles that he would have been perfectly happy at his chosen upper.
So there really is no fixed formula for success in either the 11+ or onwards imo.
They can surprise you and themselves on a daily basis, positively or negatively (from a parents perspective of course) , but if you force for all and only positives from the age of nine or ten, when and where are all the negatives going to have a chance to appear?

[quasimodo]

This may be for a number of reasons.When my dd finished her 11 plus exams in September 2014 in year 6 we decided after discussing it with her to continue her tutoring until January 2015 with her friends who were all sitting Independent exams.This was one hour per week on Maths with some extension work and English, in particular imaginative writing which they had not done much of in school.Others were doing other work with their parents.After January again in consultation with our dd we continued with some of the children until July. We asked for work in English.Prior to being a tutor her teacher taught English to primary school children and he teaches English in his tutoring to children in their early teens.

Now our dd is in year 7 at her Grammar school we don't have any tutoring but she is recieving extra lessons for her vocabulary from her school.

Not a great endorsement of your English tutor, if your dd has had over 2 years tutoring and still needs extra lessons in vocabulary from her school....

Not a reflection on the tutor who has taught many children I know over the last 20 years very successfully.My youngest is hard of hearing in one ear and for a while and prior to and during her 11 plus exams lost her hearing in both ears.The midyis tests for vocabulary in year 7 were out of line to her other results.She is one of three in her class who are presently being given extension work in maths.Whilst I expected the vocabulary to improve naturally over time the school of its own volition decided to put steps in place.She is also one of the youngest in her year.
PS the tutor is now a friend although near retirement age but someone with whom I have shared a glass of wine.