Is Justine Greening in cloud cukoo land?

[Eccentric]

An article about proposed New Grammars in the Daily mail. Is Justine Greening living in a parallel universe. How on earth does she propose that selection is made? We have heard nothing to my knowledge to show that she understands anything about how unfair the selection process is.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rived.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Aethel]

Argh, A Daily Wail link.....

<tries to resist clicking>

[tiffinboys]

Is Justine Greening living in a parallel universe.

Perhaps she is talking from her own experience. She came from comprehensive school.

Or perhaps DFE, which she heads, has more data than any one of us here.

How on earth does she propose that selection is made?

That will be upto the Governors of the selective schools. More likely, 11plus tests with quota for children from lower income families.

We have heard nothing to my knowledge to show that she understands anything about how unfair the selection process is.

What do you mean by unfairness? Matter of opinion.
If you mean, super rich families taking grammar places by coaching their children to death, then more grammar places, specially in areas where no or few grammars exist at the moment, would reduce competition, quota for low income families will help and Governors are independent in choosing the 11plus tests appropriate for their school/area.

As for super rich, in my experience, private schooling is more attractive for them. And most of them (not all) choose not to stress their children by entering in 11 plus tests for super-selective schools.

[Eccentric]

By unfair, I mean that children are disadvantaged in many ways which prevents them from being able to pass 11 + tests and from doing well in other exams in the long run. Children who come from backgrounds where parents are unable to give them a pre-education or help with their education because they themselves are not capable of doing so or where parents are uninterested in education or are unable to home tutor for 11+ tests. Parents who are unable to afford tuition for tests, parents who are unable to give extracurricular education opportunities either because of cost or because of inability to see understand the benefit. Parents who do not take their children to museums or art galleries or the theatre or read to them or encourage them to read or to be interested in the news or the world around them. Parents who simply don't have the education themselves to offer a wide vocabulary at home or who cannot or will not encourage or help with homework. Parents who cannot afford the bus to GS because you have to pay unless you are able to claim free school meals which only means those that are out of work (I, myself had to think very hard about how I was going to afford it and huge sacrifices have had to be made to afford £800 a year). Children are disadvantaged in many ways and this is why the Grammar school system does not socially mobilise.

[tiffinboys]

As there are not many grammar schools and certainly not at all in many areas, how is one assessing that the new grammars would not assist in social mobilization?

As the new grammars are supposed to have quota for lower income families, presumably their cut off scores would be lower than the rest of the children. In any case, the primary education in schools should be strong to enable bright children from economically poor background to be able to sit and pass the 11 plus test.

You make it sound as if it is the fault of rest of the bright children's parents, if some other parents do not give time to their children for reading or home work or taking to museum etc. Every one should suffer, Why? Even China is changing.

We can't afford a mansion house and live in a small terraced house, so there should be no big houses and certainly not mansion houses and Palaces. We drive an old banger, so there should be no Rolls Royces. What kind of logic is that!

Social mobility! A carpenter's son and a grocer's daughter rose to become Prime Minister. A Chaplin's daughter is the sitting PM. Jeremy Corbyn, another grammarian, hopes to become one.

Dianne Abbott, daughter of a welder, went to grammar school too and so does many of our MPs, including, would you believe it, John McDonald (and many of his shadow front bench colleagues). They had social mobility and then demolished the ladder.

[Eccentric]

I am not implying for a second that People who do and are able to do things with their children should stop to make it fair for those who don't and are not able. What I am saying however is that increasing numbers of Gs's is not the answer. The GS system was abolished in most areas because it didn't work. I live in an area that does still have a GS system and it certainly does not help the disadvantaged to gain a better education.
Having worked with people who are disadvantaged for the past 30 years. I can say absolutely categorically that without help many, are simply unable (not unwilling) to do what needs to be done in order to enable their children to pass an 11+. How does someone who doesn't have an education themselves help a child to pass an exam? How does someone who works in a low paid job and is a single parent pay £300 a term for a bus to a GS that is not classed as their local school?
Yes we can all sight a few people who have come from a disadvantaged background who have done well in the GS system as well as the Comprehensive one and many who have done badly in the public school system despite advantage. I however am talking about real social mobility which in my opinion is offering children without advantage the opportunity to rise with the same opportunities as those who have the advantages.
FSC is not a good indicator of disadvantage so I would be interested to know how any system that allowed disadvantaged children to get a lower mark to get into GS would work. What would the criteria be for disadvantage?

[tiffinboys]

What would the criteria be for disadvantage?

Lower Income might be the main criteria if it is lack of affordability which is stopping a bright child from going to a grammar. High priority to peoples premium children?

Opening the new grammars in low socio-economic areas, thereby providing more opportunities to the bright children in deprived areas, would help. Social mobility will not come overnight. It would take at least a generation. Nearly 1200 grammars have been closed since 1968 and it will take time to reverse the damage.

[Amber]

Every one should suffer, Why?

You are the biggest ever advocate for grammar schools TB. Would you mind outlining your evidence for supporting them so wholeheartedly? On every thread I read that you believe grammar schools to be necessary for bright children and I would genuinely be interested to hear what has led to that belief? Is it that you feel your own very bright child needed to attend a school with other bright children or does it go wider than that? It interests me because on here many people have taken the time and trouble to present you with evidence, both domestic and international, that grammar schools do not foster social mobility, nor serve their communities well. And yet your belief that they do is unshakeable. I am honestly keen to hear why that is.

[tiffinboys]

No, I am not the only advocate. All those on this forum, who actively seek advice to do better in selective tests and get place for their children in selective schools, are in favour of grammars. Otherwise, this forum will cease to exist.

As for social mobility, I have given so many examples time to time, if you choose to ignore, what more can we do.

Every one (including myself) who send their children to grammars, has also evaluated non-selective schools in their area and then only have preferred grammar place. For one reason or other, they find grammar came on top of the other options. You don't get a school place, without actively applying for it and putting it as higher preference.

I am sure others would also like to share why they preferred grammars.

[mystery]

An article about proposed New Grammars in the Daily mail. Is Justine Greening living in a parallel universe. How on earth does she propose that selection is made? We have heard nothing to my knowledge to show that she understands anything about how unfair the selection process is.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rived.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't bear to read it either. There was a consultation paper before Christmas about their proposals for new grammar schoools, grammar schools helping non-selectives etc etc. I have read a lot of consultation papers in my time issued by governments of various colours on various topics. I have never read such an illogical one based on peculiar assumptions in my life.

My take on it was that it was written in a way that was costless for the government itself to implement and to appeal to a very specific niche element of the voting public. It was, in my view, depressing and rubbish. If it enshrined Justine Greening's own thought process, then I'd say that she's cuckoo, not just in cloud cuckoo land. But I don't think consultation papers are the result of one politician's ideas so I would not like to comment.

I am sure that you will read many more versions of how the 11 plus selection will be made at the various new grammars if they come to pass. I think it has probably become a complete waste of time to speculate on anything as there's no particular thought process evident which would give one a likely chance of making an educated guess how things work out.

But if the new grammars are academies, and academies remain their own admission authorities, then it will be the decision of those individual admission authorities what to put in their selection test. But who knows, the test might be designed by Donald Trump and donated to us as part of the special relationship and there may be some announcements which blame the current way things are done here on EU and there might be a complete shake up of how it is all organised now that Article 50 has been triggered. Nigel Farage must know how to sort it all as he was going somehow to get us a grammar school in every town (and each town could have a large wall so that only locals can attend).