Times article "Selective schools have no impact on exam succ

[Surferfish]

Going to a grammar or private school makes almost no difference to how well children do educationally, according to research which found that pupils who made it into selective schools were genetically different to their comprehensive school peers.

Am I understanding this right?

So they are saying that passing the 11+ is mainly down to your genes? Being from a wealthy middle class background with parents who can coach their children and/or pay for tutors has little to do with it? Those who get into selective schools were just born genetically superior?

That idea is not just wrong but also quite dangerous IMO.

[Catseye]

Okay , I will you my opinion for what it is worth .........not much I suspect

The biggest value added is at prep school the it's a rule of diminishing returns from then on if you strip out socio-demographics factors then-> at about A level the advantage is marginal.

It has nothing to do with innate genetic 'intelligent genes' because after a few generation all shift back to the mean, the Royal Family are good example of this drift back to the mean with their fair share of idiots

[scary mum]

Going to a grammar or private school makes almost no difference to how well children do educationally, according to research which found that pupils who made it into selective schools were genetically different to their comprehensive school peers.

Am I understanding this right?

So they are saying that passing the 11+ is mainly down to your genes? Being from a wealthy middle class background with parents who can coach their children and/or pay for tutors has little to do with it? Those who get into selective schools were just born genetically superior?

That idea is not just wrong but also quite dangerous IMO.

The Times article does say that it is the "elephant in the classroom". Is it so surprising though?

[scary mum]

They don't seem to know much at all!

Fixed that for you.

Thank you for making me laugh (again) anotherdad

[sportsforall]

In truth this is not really very surprising to me and does not really support the case for a ban on grammar schools. Having compared the results achieved by the GS which my son attends and the comp where most of his friends go, if you look purely at the results achieved by high attainers (ie those with high SATS results) the difference is not large. However these articles don't seem to focus on the other advantages of a GS.

The comp I am talking about seems to push the bright children extremely hard right from the start to ensure that these grades are achieved. There is less focus on sports, extra curricular activities, values and leadership skills than in my sons GS.

The level of homework is incomparable with the comp giving a significant amount more than my sons GS. My impression (albeit limited to a comparison of these 2 schools) is that the selective nature of the GS allows it to focus on other areas which result in a more rounded education and a wider experience whilst still achieving slightly better attainments levels.

So far that is our experience too, DD does more extracurricular activity, a greater range of subjects, more PE and gets less homework than her counterparts in the local high-achieving comp.

[anotherdad]

Whatever the supposed benefits of genetics and socio-economic backgrounds to academic attainment, they don't seem to translate to common sense and independence for everyone. I am continually surprised by some of my daughters' schoolmates' lack of either in some circumstances. Many of them are incapable of fending for themselves, depending upon teachers at school and parents at home to do all sorts of things for them that they really ought to be doing for themselves at 17/18. They have some fantastic academic grades and predicted A-level grades but one wonders how they are going to cope at university and in the world of work.

To give some recent examples: DofE equipment chosen and bought by parents and the rucksacks packed by parents; wealthy parents buying their children cars but also sorting out the insurance, servicing, tax, etc for them; personal statements for UCAS written on their behalf and parents accompanying their children to university interviews - I don't mean driving them there, I literally mean delivering them to the room!

[Surferfish]

The Times article does say that it is the "elephant in the classroom". Is it so surprising though?

Are you saying that you agree with the article? You think that passing the 11+ is mainly down to the genes a child is born with and has little to do with background and environment?

If that's the case then any parent visiting this site for help and advice on how top prepare for the 11+ is clearly wasting their time aren't they? It was all predetermined when the sperm fertilized the egg!

[Tinkers]

Whatever the supposed benefits of genetics and socio-economic backgrounds to academic attainment, they don't seem to translate to common sense and independence for everyone. I am continually surprised by some of my daughters' schoolmates' lack of either in some circumstances. Many of them are incapable of fending for themselves, depending upon teachers at school and parents at home to do all sorts of things for them that they really ought to be doing for themselves at 17/18. They have some fantastic academic grades and predicted A-level grades but one wonders how they are going to cope at university and in the world of work.

To give some recent examples: DofE equipment chosen and bought by parents and the rucksacks packed by parents; wealthy parents buying their children cars but also sorting out the insurance, servicing, tax, etc for them; personal statements for UCAS written on their behalf and parents accompanying their children to university interviews - I don't mean driving them there, I literally mean delivering them to the room!

I’ve been trying to teach my DD to be independent as possible right from the word go. If she needs help to do something, she knows to ask, but not to ask for me to do it for her. I haven’t helped her pack for school residential trip for a few years now. She knows how to cook, load the dishwasher, do the washing etc.

If there’s an issue at school, she tells me, but will try and sort it for herself first and only asking for my help if she hasn’t got anywhere on her own.

If we go into London, I get her to work out train times and underground routes.

For me education is far more than the academics of School. They need to survive in the real world and no school can teach them all that.

She told me that some of her friends complained about what their parents put in their packed lunches. She had no sympathy and suggested they made their own instead, since she has for years. The suggestion didn’t go down well.

On top of that hopefully she is going to get decent gcse grades too.

[loopylala]

If that's the case then any parent visiting this site for help and advice on how top prepare for the 11+ is clearly wasting their time aren't they? It was all predetermined when the sperm fertilized the egg!

Perhaps the ambition and determination of those parents seeking help is down to their genetic makeup?

After all the article does state:

"There are thousands of genetic variants that are linked to educational achievement that have a tiny effect individually, but when added together can have an impact on a student's chances of doing well in exams, the study notes."

[Surferfish]

She told me that some of her friends complained about what their parents put in their packed lunches. She had no sympathy and suggested they made their own instead, since she has for years. The suggestion didn’t go down well.

I can remember working with grown men who complained about exactly the same thing!