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 Post subject: Re: BBC2 11+ documentary
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 10:34 pm 
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Location: Surrey
I am very patiently going through the debate on this thread. My pro-grammar views are well known on this forum.

The anti-grammar lobby is very vocal and has loud voice. Not new. It is since 1960s, when privately educated Tony Crosland put forward measures to abolish grammars. !970s, when again a privately educated Shirley Williams pushed moves abolishing grammars, but sent her own daughter, circumventing catchment rules, to a grant maintained Godolphin & Latimer (now one of the top private) school. Recently, Diane Abbott sent her son to a top private school and announced that she is mother first; or Ruth Kelly who did the same or Harriet Harmon who send her son to a grammar school. They refused to send their DC to non-selective state schools. Has to be Grammar or private.

When some one oppose grammar school, see where do they send or try to send their own children. They do see benefits in grammars for their own children.

And then decide why grammar is best for the children with higher ability. Ofsted Chief reports have year on year put up that non-selective schools have failed bright children in achieving their full potential.

Bright children have needs and rights too.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC2 11+ documentary
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 7:22 am 
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Apologies - my quoting went awry, so I have used bold to try and make my comments stand out in responses!

sandy09 wrote:
Thanks anotherdad

I did try to volunteer as a school governor at my child's school but did not succeed at the ballot stage. I take it that I'm hardly at the school gate to meet other parents.

Helping at school/helping other children can actually be done as effectively - if not more so - in a hands on way, rather than being a governor. Going in as a reader in your primary school, for example, helps those who are disadvantaged in a home where there are no books or no-one literate

Why nobody questions private schooling of all members the Royal family and/or families of the House of Lords but any high flying ministers with children at private schools will be put under spotlight??

People do question this - the House of Lords is populated with folk who are not voted in by the public - they are either born into it or grace and favour appointments - very different to voted/elected officials who are supposed to represent the majority. With regards to the Royal Family, bluntly, the cost of protection would be extortionate - and that currently costs the taxpayer!

Does that need to be changed? Does anybody care? If they care, they still put their children into the school of their choice reflecting their class and do something else to help society, is that right?

Yes, it does need to be changed, yes people do care and argue for change to benefit society as a whole - equally there are people who don't care, as long as their child is OK. People have to make decisions based on the system that is available at the time in their area - does not mean they agree with the system, or, if it didn't exist they would upsticks and move round the country to chase it down - I certainly wouldn't! Remember GS were never set up to help the "class" (your phrase, not mine) that they predominantly represent now - they were always set up for the bright but poor children of the working classes that could not afford education - and would, in the main, have been forced to leave at 14, if they had not attended GS

I've been reading all advice on this site with a great amount of gratitude for the long serving members who have long passed this agonizing phase yet still generously offering advice to people finding their feet on the journey. I hope once I get to the other side I can offer some back to people who will find themselves in the situation I'm in today.


Good to hear. I note that you also said earlier you are considering whether GS is right for your child - good - approach it with question marks - don't just assume that it is - contrary to some beliefs peddled widely on here, the majority of children do not access GS - either because they choose not to, do not have one locally, or do not get in - but the cruel and slightly idiotic method of a single test on a single day is proven time and time again to "miss" children who are certainly capable (just look at the number of aghast parents trying to prepare for appeals) - and yet these don't all fall by the wayside if they go to a comprehensive or Upper School - many of them succeed and exceed all expectations - they work hard - and if their parents do not make them feel a failure for not passing, work harder than ever to prove to themselves. If money was taken out of the GS system and put into improving education in mainstream schools, and all children were taught together, standards would improve for all. Conversely, there are children every year in every GS who do badly, drop out, do not make it into the 6th Form, make it but still do not get straight As....the reality is children progress at different ages, and children plateau, and children reach their level...this happens wherever they are

If you are genuinely interested in social mobility then have a read on here - Amber works in the field and has a far more informed, uptodate and relevant opinion on the subject than anyone else, and it is certainly worth understanding her point of view, amongst others.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC2 11+ documentary
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 9:03 am 
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Posts: 167
Brainfreeze wrote:
It was a fascinating insight.

Probably not advisable to watch if your DC going through the experience at the moment!

It just brought home to me how important it is that your DC knows that not passing the 11+ does not mean you are a failure.


I must admit I had tears in my eyes watching the children getting their results... we are going through the process now with DS in Y5... they looked so young and it made me think how much pressure we are putting on our kids....

Although we obviously didn't see the test papers, it looked like they were practising VR & NVR, didn't see comp or maths but I might be wrong.

Interesting to see how in Bexley & Erith the primary schools have more involvement in preparing the children for the tests than here in Herts where they have none.

Looking forward to the next two episodes.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC2 11+ documentary
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 9:10 am 
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kenyancowgirl wrote:
Conversely, there are children every year in every GS who do badly, drop out, do not make it into the 6th Form, make it but still do not get straight As....the reality is children progress at different ages, and children plateau, and children reach their level...this happens wherever they are

There are a good number of students in the two single-sex Aylesbury grammar schools (I can't comment on the Floyd because I don't know people who teach there now) who have personal tutoring alongside their school education, some of them all the way through to year 13! You have to wonder whether they were best-placed there and guess what? They are students who were privately tutored to qualify in the 11+ in the first place. Their parents effectively bought a grammar school place, at the expense of children that would have been better suited there, and have felt the need to supplement it with private tuition ever since. There are several such students in my daughter's year and now is when it starts to hurt because those students will not be heading off to the hallowed halls of Oxbridge or into medicine, much to their parents' disappointment.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC2 11+ documentary
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 9:11 am 
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Location: Surrey
Despite these strongly held views, were they prepared to chose any non-selective school? It seems it is fashion to talk against selection on ability, while considering grammars good enough for own families.

Yes, I do agree that selection tests needs to be continually reassessed and improved. Also another point of entrance at 13plus could be considered as used to happen in many schools before mass abolishment of grammars.

Also many grammar schools now have preference category for FSM and PP children. In our local grammar, Tiffin, these children have higher priority over other children upto the limit of PAN, not just 20, 30 places.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC2 11+ documentary
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:15 am 
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tiffinboys wrote:
many grammar schools now have preference category for FSM and PP children. In our local grammar, Tiffin, these children have higher priority over other children upto the limit of PAN, not just 20, 30 places.


How many were allocated places at Tiffin under the FSM & PP priority criteria this year?


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 Post subject: Re: BBC2 11+ documentary
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:20 am 
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tiffinboys wrote:
It seems it is fashion to talk against selection on ability, while considering grammars good enough for own families.


It also seems fashionable to talk in favour of Grammars whilst living in a comprehensive area. Apparently secondary moderns are an excellent idea - for other peoples DCs.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC2 11+ documentary
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:28 am 
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anotherdad wrote:
kenyancowgirl wrote:
Conversely, there are children every year in every GS who do badly, drop out, do not make it into the 6th Form, make it but still do not get straight As....the reality is children progress at different ages, and children plateau, and children reach their level...this happens wherever they are

There are a good number of students in the two single-sex Aylesbury grammar schools (I can't comment on the Floyd because I don't know people who teach there now) who have personal tutoring alongside their school education, some of them all the way through to year 13! You have to wonder whether they were best-placed there and guess what? They are students who were privately tutored to qualify in the 11+ in the first place. Their parents effectively bought a grammar school place, at the expense of children that would have been better suited there, and have felt the need to supplement it with private tuition ever since. There are several such students in my daughter's year and now is when it starts to hurt because those students will not be heading off to the hallowed halls of Oxbridge or into medicine, much to their parents' disappointment.


Yes....my worry about this programme is that, whilst it might make some parents sit up and think "is GS the right place, really?", there will be many others who will say that the children featured who "failed" to get a place did so because they did not work hard enough and use it as ammunition to make their own children to do more stuff at home, or spend more money on tutors - and this creates a vicious circle of the type described above. :?


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 Post subject: Re: BBC2 11+ documentary
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:57 am 
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Posts: 7252
Location: Surrey
loopylala wrote:
tiffinboys wrote:
It seems it is fashion to talk against selection on ability, while considering grammars good enough for own families.


It also seems fashionable to talk in favour of Grammars whilst living in a comprehensive area. Apparently secondary moderns are an excellent idea - for other peoples DCs.


Schools are either selective or non-selective. There is nothing stopping non-selective schools better funded, better resourced (teachers are almost the same in both schools) or full range of subjects on offer.

Also apparently 'according to knowledgeable people', there are no comprehensive schools in England. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: BBC2 11+ documentary
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:59 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:00 pm
Posts: 7252
Location: Surrey
loopylala wrote:
tiffinboys wrote:
many grammar schools now have preference category for FSM and PP children. In our local grammar, Tiffin, these children have higher priority over other children upto the limit of PAN, not just 20, 30 places.


How many were allocated places at Tiffin under the FSM & PP priority criteria this year?


The new criteria is effective from Sep 2019 intake, as per DAA. Our school is doing it's bit. As admission area is 10 km radius, covering large part of densely populated Greater London, I am sure there would be substantial improvement in FSM/PP intake in our local school.

As it is 6.6% of school population (2017 report) is FSM/PP children, which is likely to increase substantially from Sep 2019 intake.


Last edited by tiffinboys on Thu May 31, 2018 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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