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 Post subject: Re: BBC2 11+ documentary
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 2:01 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:33 pm
Posts: 1763
turnip08 wrote:
Anyone read Malcolm Gladwell's 'Outliers'? A fantastic book looking into the fallacy of thinking about 'innate' ability when much of 'success' comes down to pure hours of application whether that is computer programming or sports.

Thanks turnip08, I shall add that to my reading list. I've read 'Bounce' by Matthew Syed which begins in much the same way when exploring sporting success.

To be clear, I'm not decrying sporting success or diminishing the value of sporting participation even if it doesn't lead to gold medals. The reference to sporting success as a sort of alternative to academic attainment by sandy09 was a curious one that doesn't fit the available evidence in Bucks. In fact, looking through the "Top 100" lists, selective schools feature disproportionately highly so it's not just a Bucks thing.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC2 11+ documentary
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:04 pm 
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you missed my point anotherdad
As I said a system such as one in Kent where GS takes the top 25% is way too much. So the Bucks system appears to be worse with GS taking away top 30%. In an average primary school class, 20-30% of the children are high attainers, 50-60% are middle attainers and 10-20% are low attainers. If GS takes the top 5-10% then there is still a healthy 10-15% of high attainers mixing with the rest, creating a balanced cohort which would attract many parents, myself included, ie if my bright child does not make the mark for the top 5-10% grammar intake, I'm happy for them to go to a non selective school where there are also other high attaining children.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC2 11+ documentary
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:21 pm 
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speaking of what should be done with respect to the UK education system, based on my observations the system is incredibly outdated in its structure, with two stages of education which seem to have been in place for more than 100 years despite profound changes in society. OK I take it that a majority of people in this country, maybe not this board, support school leaving age at 16. That's one thing outdated but if you want to keep it you need to reform primary and secondary stages so as to give children more preparation for life at 16. I mean making primary shorter say up to year 4-5, adding a middle school stage for transition to teenage years, allowing more orientation in the last few years age 14-16 when children's academic/vocational traits are relatively developed.

I completely disagree with selection at age 11 however the current outdated structure of the education system dictates almost one single point of entry. Adding other years of entry in the current system does not solve the problem because the numbers will never be high enough.

Of course education is a never ending debate and it's such a hot potato that consecutive governments for decades have never dared to change the structure, only touching superficial changes and still getting burnt terribly every single time so of course nobody has any incentive to make drastic changes. At the end of the day the kids will be fine no matter what we do or don't do.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC2 11+ documentary
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:31 pm 
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Posts: 16127
You cannot leave education completely at 16 - here are the rules:

https://www.gov.uk/know-when-you-can-leave-school

Middle schools proved ineffective and have been phased out nearly everywhere now - changing school at 14 is too late as many school start GCSE prep work [or actual work] in Year 9. I did a teaching practice at a 14 to 18 school and settling them in straight in exam subjects they had not chosen when with us was challenging - that school is now closed.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC2 11+ documentary
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:42 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:00 pm
Posts: 7281
Location: Surrey
How about 11+ and 13+ entry points?


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 Post subject: Re: BBC2 11+ documentary
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:51 pm 
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sandy09 wrote:
you missed my point anotherdad
As I said a system such as one in Kent where GS takes the top 25% is way too much. So the Bucks system appears to be worse with GS taking away top 30%. In an average primary school class, 20-30% of the children are high attainers, 50-60% are middle attainers and 10-20% are low attainers. If GS takes the top 5-10% then there is still a healthy 10-15% of high attainers mixing with the rest, creating a balanced cohort which would attract many parents, myself included, ie if my bright child does not make the mark for the top 5-10% grammar intake, I'm happy for them to go to a non selective school where there are also other high attaining children.

I was addressing your suggestion that if the "top 5-10%" of children go to grammar schools, that the rest would outperform them at subjects like sport and performing arts. The evidence suggests that wouldn't be the case. What did I miss?

I'm interested in the statistics you're quoting. Where did you get them from? I'm a primary governor and although my school doesn't fit the average pattern you quote, it would be good to see what the average profile is because I've never seen it and haven't looked for it :oops: . Is it a national average and if so, are there regional subsets of that data?

Despite the Bucks GS taking in more students than in most areas (I think the actual figure this year is just over 32%?), there are lots of high attaining children in upper schools, largely because they've been displaced by tourists and the heavily tutored.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC2 11+ documentary
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:56 pm 
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Location: Surrey
If 32% are already in grammars and many more in non-selectives, then are high attainers in Bucks 40% or more?


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 Post subject: Re: BBC2 11+ documentary
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 5:01 pm 
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Sandy....to add to anotherdad’s post, not to mention that nothing I have seen proves that those selected on that one day in September by a single test actually ARE the brightest kids.

If that was the case, every child in GS would get straight top grades. They don’t. And no child in a comprehensive would (they do). And nobody would bother appealing - but they do because they believe their child is brighter than the test showed.

You said that a child should get the education that meets their need - so a child who fails by one mark should not be entitled to a GS education period. But a child who passes with one mark more should? Rot. They both should be entitled to a great education. It is well recognised that children work up towards the top end - that is, if standards are driven up, the bottom end moves up too - even adamant GS parents talk about wanting their children with like minded others for that very same reason. By keeping the top 30% in fully comprehensive schools standards will improve for all.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC2 11+ documentary
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 5:09 pm 
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Wherever you have Grammars you cannot, by definition, have comprehensive schools.

Even if one could prove Grammars were 'a good thing' then instantly you are 'condemning' those who don't qualify to a Secondary Modern and fewer options on the basis of a one morning test. How is that fair? I know of children with level 6 Maths at Upper [Sec Mod] schools and many there with the 'old' 3 level 5s at KS2.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC2 11+ documentary
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 5:12 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:00 pm
Posts: 7281
Location: Surrey
Another chance at 13+?


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