Grammar schools: Myth v Reality

[jxp]

Not all pupils require heavy tutoring for grammar school (GS) admission. Tutoring is common for top 10 GS like QE, HBS, Sutton schools etc. but in many other GS pupils can qualify by their natural abilities without having to study 6+ hours a day.

Not all GS pupils to go Oxford/Cambridge. Conversely, there are plenty of pupils in Oxford/Cambridge who came from comprehensive schools.

There is a craze for GS because in South Asian communities it brings "elevated social status" for parents - i.e. my child is better than yours feeling.

Buying a house in GS area can be more competitive than qualifying in GS exams! It may be cheaper to send your kid(s) to private schools if you don't already live near to your target GS.

Quality of teaching in GS is no different against comprehensive schools. GS gets unfair advantage due to "filtering" during admissions.

GS kids can be as naughty as comprehensive school kids.

Since every kid in GS has high ability, being in a top set in a GS is more challenge compared to comprehensive schools. In QE/HBS, getting 97% marks in Maths may mean kid demoted to set #3 because those with 100% score only kept in top sets. This could be demotivating for the kids, who are otherwise extremely competent.

[CSB]

I have a child at grammar and a child at a comprehensive, both Y10.

1. At the grammar, my child says that 50%+ of the class have tutors outside school, often multiple tutors. We don't feel the pressure to follow suit. The teaching is excellent, and our child is doing well.

2. The environment at the grammar is relatively relaxed, and the comprehensive higher pressure (it's part of an Academy group that has a reputation for this). I would say the prevalence of mental health issues is high right now across all schools - the kids have had a rough couple of years, on top of the usual social + academic pressures they face at this age. You (and the child) won't always know what has triggered the mental health problem. However, whether it's problems inside or outside school, the school's wellbeing team, and having approachable teachers, can play a massive part in supporting students. One of our schools is much better than the other in this regard, but I believe this is down to individual school policy and individuals at the school, and not connected to the type of school.

3. Our child at the comp has consistently been set much more homework than our child at the grammar school. Both have strong teachers and not so strong teachers. Both have quite a high turnover of staff - many are leaving the profession at the moment unfortunately. Friendships have been easier at the comp. It's hard to tell whether this is down to the type of school or just incidental, but it definitely helps that most kids at the comp live within a mile or 2 of the school, and they're not doing so many hours of extra curricular tuition.

[Sparklecat]

I have general queries around the myths v reality of grammar schools. The reason I ask is primarily due to naysayers of the whole grammar school ethos.
I've heard anecdotal answers to these queries and because I understand those peoples views, or political persuasions, the answers they give are clouded and negative.
So I'm asking here not to have my own biases confirmed but to see if there is actual real world evidence to support the myths or the reality.

1. Do many children that have been tutored for the 11 plus need tutoring once they get into grammar or is tutoring a rarity once the children actually get into grammar?We have only heard of one girl who struggles academically. Tutoring is endemic. Almost every child in our area who passed was tutored. Only one child who was tutored failed.

2. Grammar school kids have more mental health issues due to the 'highly pressurised' environment, with some selective girls grammar schools having eating disorder units due to the prevalence of mental health issuesHaven't heard of eating disorders beyond diets, but gender issues are a new craze. One class half the girls are claiming to be LGBT+, which seems statistically unlikely. In their wish to be inclusive, the school don’t seem to know how to deal with it.

3. Are there parents on here who heard other myths about the grammar school experience which they have now found to be spurious, what were those myths?That half the girls are high functioning autistic. It happens, but isn’t typical. But there is social competition between girls in the early years until friendships settle down and they become more mature. Some might call it good old fashioned bullying, others just girls being girls. We had one girl transfer from non-grammar to grammar for extreme cruelty by the girl who was the worst primary school bully.

The claims I've heard are pretty outlandish to the point I have had to dismiss them outright as they sound crazy. So just seeking a more measured view to whether these claims are true or false as well as alternative myths that have been floating around but experience has proved them to be false.

[PerpetualStudent]

2. Grammar school kids have more mental health issues due to the 'highly pressurised' environment, with some selective girls grammar schools having eating disorder units due to the prevalence of mental health issuesHaven't heard of eating disorders beyond diets, but gender issues are a new craze. One class half the girls are claiming to be LGBT+, which seems statistically unlikely. In their wish to be inclusive, the school don’t seem to know how to deal with it.

According to those who make a study of this aspect of human behaviour eg Tracy Cox 50% is about normal for this age group but only about 10% will continue to express an LGBT+ identity into adulthood. The fact the students feel safe to express themselves is probably a good sign and not something the school needs to change. I am aware of other schools where the student body is definitely much more inhibited making it very hard for those who have come out.

edited for typo

[Sparklecat]

As with earlier eating disorders that suddenly grew from nothing, there is a huge element of social contagion with gender. Studies show that the vast majority of cases of gender dysphoria resolve themselves with watchful waiting. But when children are instantly affirmed and put on a path towards puberty blockers, hormones and surgery, almost none detransition. That is why recommending organisations with an interest in transition, and using pronouns and new names, sometimes without parental knowledge, is dangerous. It’s clear to me that some girls grammar teachers have totally misunderstood what is happening and learned nothing from previous crazes that sprang from nowhere. You don’t affirm an anorexic girl and tell her she needs to lose weight, and you don’t tell a girl confused by puberty that she can literally be a boy.

[solimum]

As with earlier eating disorders that suddenly grew from nothing, there is a huge element of social contagion with gender. Studies show that the vast majority of cases of gender dysphoria resolve themselves with watchful waiting. But when children are instantly affirmed and put on a path towards puberty blockers, hormones and surgery, almost none detransition. That is why recommending organisations with an interest in transition, and using pronouns and new names, sometimes without parental knowledge, is dangerous. It’s clear to me that some girls grammar teachers have totally misunderstood what is happening and learned nothing from previous crazes that sprang from nowhere. You don’t affirm an anorexic girl and tell her she needs to lose weight, and you don’t tell a girl confused by puberty that she can literally be a boy.

And the overlap with autism in girls is also significant - we've only recently started noticing & diagnosing girls on the autism spectrum as they are often better at masking the difficulties with fitting in socially with their peers. Now instead those slightly geeky girls who are not interested in make-up/Love Island are being celebrated for being "really" boys instead of that bother of trying to fit in with girls . And the "normal" for girls is pushed to the Instagrammable extremes where the high maintenance fashion and beauty industry makes its money, while generations of feminists who pushed for girls to be taken seriously as engineers, pilots, HGV drivers or whatever can only despair...

[nyr]

Since every kid in GS has high ability, being in a top set in a GS is more challenge compared to comprehensive schools. In QE/HBS, getting 97% marks in Maths may mean kid demoted to set #3 because those with 100% score only kept in top sets. This could be demotivating for the kids, who are otherwise extremely competent.

Just for the record. It's assumed that all girls are perfectly able to cope with the demands of KS3, KS4 and KS5 so, there are no sets in HBS.

As far as QE is concerned, in the early years, the top maths sets are often occupied by students deft with arithmetic rather than the more abstract branches and boys/parents really need not lose sleep over moving sets. I always like to give the example of a student who was in the bottom set in Y7 and went on to do rather well in his Part III (MMath) at Cambridge.

Yes, in these sorts of schools, students will find able peers but they just need to respect and learn from them rather than allow themselves to feel browbeaten.

[adi75]

1. No tutoring once they get into grammar.

2. No as such mental health issues.

3. No such myths.