The hardest/most competitive schools for 11+ entry?
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I do not know they can pass only on the second paper.Mike wrote:
Tutors in Bucks know that children can pass the test on the second paper only, and that the majority of the content of the paper can be predicted.
I do not agree with Patricia on the "dead horse" scenario.
Regards
Mike
Yes after the second paper, tutors AND parents will know that all the other types will be addressed [plus Zs and 2 crossovers] But I and other tutors and parents do not know the actual questions and difficulty. You still have to teach every type to the childs best ability. You cannot leave it till the week before the second test and say ok we will now teach you those 10 types [ +2 crossovers] intesively or not, we just do not know how difficult the vocab/spelling is going to be.
In addition you are assuming that I [and other tutors] can give a child intensive training between paper 1 and paper 2. Tutors generally have more than 1 child on their books. I can see them once for an hour [thats intensive?]
Yes there is an advantage on the 2nd paper. Test 1 all 21 types are needed, 2nd test we can just practice those other types [but still do not know what the crossovers are??] It is not a dead cert that the second test will be a better mark. We still do not know the difficulty. There is no guarantee.
You cannot flog that poor old horse. A child of average ability or less cannot cope with the level of vocabulary thrown at them. [A ,B, D, F, H, J M, Q, S] And in TIME. And aquire the high pass mark.
The horses that you have flogged were at GCSE [5 years after the 11 plus anything could have happenned] Yes, some will pass unexpectedly and are perhaps in the wrong school, but that is not the majority and not necessarily down to 'intensive coaching' and flogging...
I agree it is a tad more diffilcult to PASS the Bucks test, due to the high pass mark. High because, as Bucks County Council state...
Bucks children are of higher average ability
Children who will more than likely not pass are withdrawn from the process.
Children coming in from out of County are self selecting, therefore heavily tutored [ by parent or private]
In addition more and more parents are becoming more savvy with knowledge of the test and its procedures.
Patricia
edited to add: just looked through my records and there is no relation between marks for the 1st and 2nd test. Some gain higher in the first test others in the second test.
AND will you leave that poor beep horse alone.
Hi Patricia
So we agree that entrance to Bucks LEA grammar schools is more difficult than for other LEA grammar schools?
Having intensively tutored all 21 question types up to the first test, then tutors in Bucks change their focus onto the questions that did not appear on the first paper because they know that those question types will appear on the second paper. The two or three overlap question types are irrelevant because they have already been covered. If they do not do this then they are not providing a quality service expected by parents.
It is not necessarily the case that parents will know the full content of the first paper as they are relying on a single student to deliver the information. Tutors and preparaory schools have a larger number of students and by gleaning information from all of them can make better analysis of the content of the first paper.
I would never assume anything about you Patricia, but we both know that last year a tutoring organisation posted the content of the first test on another site. When I was tutoring on the Wirral I set homework based on the question types that did not appear on the first paper.
I would also not assume that the preparation process only occurs whist the student attends a tutor. In my experience most parents provide addittional practice away from the tutor. As a tutor I always provided advice on the most suitable publications and content to use.
I will always argue that you place too much emphasis on the vocabulary content of the tests.
If Bucks children are of a higher average ability, would a child of low average ability in another LEA be called a "really dead horse"?
Hi G55
If Bucks prefer to only use VR, why don't they just increase the number of questions in the test to 100. This would allow full coverage of all 21 question types on both papers.
Bucks students don't necessarily have two bites of the same cherry they have the opportunity to take one bite out of two seperate cherries knowing that the second one is juicier than the first.
Regards
Mike
So we agree that entrance to Bucks LEA grammar schools is more difficult than for other LEA grammar schools?
Having intensively tutored all 21 question types up to the first test, then tutors in Bucks change their focus onto the questions that did not appear on the first paper because they know that those question types will appear on the second paper. The two or three overlap question types are irrelevant because they have already been covered. If they do not do this then they are not providing a quality service expected by parents.
It is not necessarily the case that parents will know the full content of the first paper as they are relying on a single student to deliver the information. Tutors and preparaory schools have a larger number of students and by gleaning information from all of them can make better analysis of the content of the first paper.
I would never assume anything about you Patricia, but we both know that last year a tutoring organisation posted the content of the first test on another site. When I was tutoring on the Wirral I set homework based on the question types that did not appear on the first paper.
I would also not assume that the preparation process only occurs whist the student attends a tutor. In my experience most parents provide addittional practice away from the tutor. As a tutor I always provided advice on the most suitable publications and content to use.
I will always argue that you place too much emphasis on the vocabulary content of the tests.
If Bucks children are of a higher average ability, would a child of low average ability in another LEA be called a "really dead horse"?
Hi G55
If Bucks prefer to only use VR, why don't they just increase the number of questions in the test to 100. This would allow full coverage of all 21 question types on both papers.
Bucks students don't necessarily have two bites of the same cherry they have the opportunity to take one bite out of two seperate cherries knowing that the second one is juicier than the first.
Regards
Mike
Mike Edwards is a co-author of The Tutors product range.
Dear All
As this thread has gone off topic. I have asked the programmer to split the thread. One for the original topic and One for a 'debate' on Vocabulary.
As a moderator, I have the machinery to do the split myself, but I always seem to get it wrong! I will therefore leave it up to the expert...
P
As this thread has gone off topic. I have asked the programmer to split the thread. One for the original topic and One for a 'debate' on Vocabulary.
As a moderator, I have the machinery to do the split myself, but I always seem to get it wrong! I will therefore leave it up to the expert...
P
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Kent99
Every county or individual grammar school is trying to identify the brightest students. No format is foolproof, particularly now that so many children are coached, so each admissions authority does its best.
Other factors may also need to be put in the balance. I believe that one reason that Kent CC don't put as much emphasis on English and VR as some authorities is because to do so would be to seriously disadvantage children for whom English is not their first language. There is also a chance for primary school headteachers to flag up issues like that in individual cases before pass lists and school allocations are finalised. Out of interest, does anyone know how many recent immigrants (non- anglophone) or other children at an early stage of learning English pass the Bucks 11+, however brilliant they may be?
In answer to the original question in this thread I imagine that the most selective schools are those isolated schools in "non grammar" areas where the number of children applying for each place is highest. If they are in areas with large numbers of bright, professional families who will coach, (eg London) the standards are higher still. That said, as different schools test different skills, individual children will differ in which tests they find hardest. For example a child who is good at maths and NVR but weaker in English composition is likely to find the Essex papers much tougher than those in Kent. A linguistically very able child with crummy spatial reasoning abilities might prefer the Essex tests.
Other factors may also need to be put in the balance. I believe that one reason that Kent CC don't put as much emphasis on English and VR as some authorities is because to do so would be to seriously disadvantage children for whom English is not their first language. There is also a chance for primary school headteachers to flag up issues like that in individual cases before pass lists and school allocations are finalised. Out of interest, does anyone know how many recent immigrants (non- anglophone) or other children at an early stage of learning English pass the Bucks 11+, however brilliant they may be?
In answer to the original question in this thread I imagine that the most selective schools are those isolated schools in "non grammar" areas where the number of children applying for each place is highest. If they are in areas with large numbers of bright, professional families who will coach, (eg London) the standards are higher still. That said, as different schools test different skills, individual children will differ in which tests they find hardest. For example a child who is good at maths and NVR but weaker in English composition is likely to find the Essex papers much tougher than those in Kent. A linguistically very able child with crummy spatial reasoning abilities might prefer the Essex tests.
Dear Kent99
Some years ago, Bucks were leaning towards NVR. This was due to the fact that a number of children with English as a second language were NOT passing the Bucks VR test [due to the complexities of the vocabulary] yet within a year or so at an upper school, it became obvious the child should be in a grammar school.
There is statistical data, when I have time I will go looking.
Patricia
Some years ago, Bucks were leaning towards NVR. This was due to the fact that a number of children with English as a second language were NOT passing the Bucks VR test [due to the complexities of the vocabulary] yet within a year or so at an upper school, it became obvious the child should be in a grammar school.
There is statistical data, when I have time I will go looking.
Patricia
Kent99
I was interested in your point that children would find different tests more difficult/easy depending on their own strengths/weakness. I'd always assumed that on the whole, one 11+ test was much the same as another and that how easy it is to get into a grammar is based, allowing for admissions criteria, on the number and relative performance of the applicants in any given year.
The only thing I would like to add is that Essex don't have a composition piece but they do have a comprehension that can be quite challenging!
Lulu
I was interested in your point that children would find different tests more difficult/easy depending on their own strengths/weakness. I'd always assumed that on the whole, one 11+ test was much the same as another and that how easy it is to get into a grammar is based, allowing for admissions criteria, on the number and relative performance of the applicants in any given year.
The only thing I would like to add is that Essex don't have a composition piece but they do have a comprehension that can be quite challenging!
Lulu
In Essex (as far as I have been able to establish) the Chelmsford Schools receive slightly fewer applicants per place than the Colchester Schools and far fewer than the Southend Schools, but the Chelmsford schools require the highest score in the 11+, marginally higher than Colchester and significantly higher than Southend.
It may be because the pass mark is higher for Chelmsford that there are fewer applications. Also the the fact that Chelmsford is closer to the "stockbroker belt", there is probably a better "sample" of children and/or they are more heavily tutored/coached.moving wrote:In Essex (as far as I have been able to establish) the Chelmsford Schools receive slightly fewer applicants per place than the Colchester Schools and far fewer than the Southend Schools, but the Chelmsford schools require the highest score in the 11+, marginally higher than Colchester and significantly higher than Southend.
