Debating the need for a Good Vocabulary
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So, to conclude.
Nfer VR Muliple Choice, 21 types.
Each test has 12 types: which can be split into 2 sets...
1] 2 codes [from C L N U] 2 maths [from G I K P ] Z and one where does the letter come from [from O R ] [6 types]
2] The rest of the test will be made up of Vocabulary/Spelling/Word recognition [ ie WORDS ]
B D H M S: Meanings
A and J : Spelling and Word recognition
F : Spelling and Meaning.
E : Word Recognition, the harder end of a section can contain SAGA VETO EWES SATE
Q : Word Recognition, harder ones to recognise as as a word [for young children] inlude Rampart, Clamour Threshold Manhole
Set 1 can be rote learnt. Set 2 cannot. It requires a competent level of vocabulary/word knowledge.
P
Nfer VR Muliple Choice, 21 types.
Each test has 12 types: which can be split into 2 sets...
1] 2 codes [from C L N U] 2 maths [from G I K P ] Z and one where does the letter come from [from O R ] [6 types]
2] The rest of the test will be made up of Vocabulary/Spelling/Word recognition [ ie WORDS ]
B D H M S: Meanings
A and J : Spelling and Word recognition
F : Spelling and Meaning.
E : Word Recognition, the harder end of a section can contain SAGA VETO EWES SATE
Q : Word Recognition, harder ones to recognise as as a word [for young children] inlude Rampart, Clamour Threshold Manhole
Set 1 can be rote learnt. Set 2 cannot. It requires a competent level of vocabulary/word knowledge.
P
I have been reading through this thread and it does seem to me that, for Bucks at least, the Vocab really is the decider… a look at all the queries from various posters suggests that in the early days, everyone is learning techniques asking questions about codes etc but by this stage in the process most of the postings are about vocabulary – how to build on it and strange answers the children sometimes give.
I was discussing this with a friend recently – both our boys will be taking their 11+ this year – both are bright, have always been considered by their teachers to be “above averageâ€
I was discussing this with a friend recently – both our boys will be taking their 11+ this year – both are bright, have always been considered by their teachers to be “above averageâ€
I think Greta2's analysis is a very good one, so good infact that surely any board will be looking for these things. I assume Greta2 is relating her thoughts to Bucks because that's the one she is familiar with. (Sorry Greta2, I'm also assuming you are femaleI appreciate that tutors will have a great deal more experience of this, but now going through it a second time, it seems to me that the Bucks 11+ aims to identify –
1. Children who can learn techniques and
2. Children who have sound basic maths skills and can apply these in a problem solving manner and
3. Children who can work accurately at speed and
4. Children who have very good vocabulary and spelling for their age.
). So whilst appreciating that some of the processes might vary slightly, I'd be interested to know if other areas are trying to identify anything else.Thanks
Lulu
Hi
I agree that a student needs a reasonable vocabulary to pass the tests and a good vocabulary to get above 90%. However, anything above 90% is not necessary to pass the tests.
The only vocab question that has significant question variance is type M, but because of the variance of the questions the vocab difficulty is not as high across the question range.
Type B "to do well you will need to have a good vocabulary"(IPS) and type S "these question will check your vocabulary"(IPS) are the more difficult vocabulary questions.
Types D F H and Q can mostly be completed by following standard methods & techniques published by a range of authors.
Types A E and J do not require a high level of vocabulary.
When Bucks requested an additional 6 question types 2 were vocab based H and S, I and K are Maths, N is coding and O is word forming but not vocab based. This would indicate that they were trying to achieve a more balanced test between vocab and Maths/coding.
Greta2 touches on the fact that many children preparing for the tests, who have an above average chance of passing it, have attained a good level of language acquisition. This is because vocabulary is taught from an early age and across the spectrum of the National Curriculum.
The Maths questions are mostly out of context of any content of the Mathematics curriculum and the coding/word creating questions do not appear at all within the curriculum. So students are starting right at the beginning, although students with good mental arithmetic skills would have less problems with some of the Maths questions.
Maths/coding questions generally take longer to complete than the vocab questions, particularly N and Z questions.
At the early stages of preparation method & technique and identification of question variances poses more difficulty across the Maths/coding questions than the vocabulary questions. On balance more time is spent teaching Maths/coding questions than vocab questions. However, at the later stages of preparation the vocab questions do appear to pose the most difficulty.
Vocabulary improves as students complete a range of papers and apply suitable method & techniques to them, accuracy improves as students become more able to identify ambiguity in the questions and are more careful in reading the question. Many errors in vocab questions are due to the "silly mistake".
Regards
Mike
I agree that a student needs a reasonable vocabulary to pass the tests and a good vocabulary to get above 90%. However, anything above 90% is not necessary to pass the tests.
The only vocab question that has significant question variance is type M, but because of the variance of the questions the vocab difficulty is not as high across the question range.
Type B "to do well you will need to have a good vocabulary"(IPS) and type S "these question will check your vocabulary"(IPS) are the more difficult vocabulary questions.
Types D F H and Q can mostly be completed by following standard methods & techniques published by a range of authors.
Types A E and J do not require a high level of vocabulary.
When Bucks requested an additional 6 question types 2 were vocab based H and S, I and K are Maths, N is coding and O is word forming but not vocab based. This would indicate that they were trying to achieve a more balanced test between vocab and Maths/coding.
Greta2 touches on the fact that many children preparing for the tests, who have an above average chance of passing it, have attained a good level of language acquisition. This is because vocabulary is taught from an early age and across the spectrum of the National Curriculum.
The Maths questions are mostly out of context of any content of the Mathematics curriculum and the coding/word creating questions do not appear at all within the curriculum. So students are starting right at the beginning, although students with good mental arithmetic skills would have less problems with some of the Maths questions.
Maths/coding questions generally take longer to complete than the vocab questions, particularly N and Z questions.
At the early stages of preparation method & technique and identification of question variances poses more difficulty across the Maths/coding questions than the vocabulary questions. On balance more time is spent teaching Maths/coding questions than vocab questions. However, at the later stages of preparation the vocab questions do appear to pose the most difficulty.
Vocabulary improves as students complete a range of papers and apply suitable method & techniques to them, accuracy improves as students become more able to identify ambiguity in the questions and are more careful in reading the question. Many errors in vocab questions are due to the "silly mistake".
Regards
Mike
Mike Edwards is a co-author of The Tutors product range.
I agree that a student needs a reasonable vocabulary to pass the tests and a good vocabulary to get above 90%. However, anything above 90% is not necessary to pass the tests.
The only vocab question that has significant question variance is type M, but because of the variance of the questions the vocab difficulty is not as high across the question range. Not a 100% expectation because of the vocabulary
Type B "to do well you will need to have a good vocabulary"(IPS) and type S "these question will check your vocabulary"(IPS) are the more difficult vocabulary questions. Agreed
Types D F H and Q can mostly be completed by following standard methods & techniques published by a range of authors. They can be completed of course, does not mean they will get it right. Not a 100% expectation because of the vocabulary
Types A E and J do not require a high level of vocabulary. Not a 100% expectation because of the vocabulary
When Bucks requested an additional 6 question types 2 were vocab based H and S, I and K are Maths, N is coding and O is word forming but not vocab based. This would indicate that they were trying to achieve a more balanced test between vocab and Maths/coding. Not relevant to the discussion. Your reasoning is in fact incorrect.
Greta2 touches on the fact that many children preparing for the tests, who have an above average chance of passing it, have attained a good level of language acquisition. This is because vocabulary is taught from an early age and across the spectrum of the National Curriculum. Read the rest of her post in context.
The Maths questions are mostly out of context of any content of the Mathematics curriculum and the coding/word creating questions do not appear at all within the curriculum. So students are starting right at the beginning, although students with good mental arithmetic skills would have less problems with some of the Maths questions. The expectation is 100%
Maths/coding questions generally take longer to complete than the vocab questions, particularly N and Z questions. Not relevant, however 100% expectatiopn
At the early stages of preparation method & technique and identification of question variances poses more difficulty across the Maths/coding questions than the vocabulary questions. On balance more time is spent teaching Maths/coding questions than vocab questions. However, at the later stages of preparation the vocab questions do appear to pose the most difficulty. Although not totally correct, You are starting to understand
Vocabulary improves as students complete a range of papers and apply suitable method & techniques to them, accuracy improves as students become more able to identify ambiguity in the questions and are more careful in reading the question. Many errors in vocab questions are due to the "silly mistake". Improves yes, occasionally silly, majority of the time, just unknown vocab.
P
The only vocab question that has significant question variance is type M, but because of the variance of the questions the vocab difficulty is not as high across the question range. Not a 100% expectation because of the vocabulary
Type B "to do well you will need to have a good vocabulary"(IPS) and type S "these question will check your vocabulary"(IPS) are the more difficult vocabulary questions. Agreed
Types D F H and Q can mostly be completed by following standard methods & techniques published by a range of authors. They can be completed of course, does not mean they will get it right. Not a 100% expectation because of the vocabulary
Types A E and J do not require a high level of vocabulary. Not a 100% expectation because of the vocabulary
When Bucks requested an additional 6 question types 2 were vocab based H and S, I and K are Maths, N is coding and O is word forming but not vocab based. This would indicate that they were trying to achieve a more balanced test between vocab and Maths/coding. Not relevant to the discussion. Your reasoning is in fact incorrect.
Greta2 touches on the fact that many children preparing for the tests, who have an above average chance of passing it, have attained a good level of language acquisition. This is because vocabulary is taught from an early age and across the spectrum of the National Curriculum. Read the rest of her post in context.
The Maths questions are mostly out of context of any content of the Mathematics curriculum and the coding/word creating questions do not appear at all within the curriculum. So students are starting right at the beginning, although students with good mental arithmetic skills would have less problems with some of the Maths questions. The expectation is 100%
Maths/coding questions generally take longer to complete than the vocab questions, particularly N and Z questions. Not relevant, however 100% expectatiopn
At the early stages of preparation method & technique and identification of question variances poses more difficulty across the Maths/coding questions than the vocabulary questions. On balance more time is spent teaching Maths/coding questions than vocab questions. However, at the later stages of preparation the vocab questions do appear to pose the most difficulty. Although not totally correct, You are starting to understand
Vocabulary improves as students complete a range of papers and apply suitable method & techniques to them, accuracy improves as students become more able to identify ambiguity in the questions and are more careful in reading the question. Many errors in vocab questions are due to the "silly mistake". Improves yes, occasionally silly, majority of the time, just unknown vocab.
P
Dear Mike
I no longer have the time and energy to 'debate' with you.
You are INCORRECT, without any doubt. There are no shades of grey. It is a black and white situation.
If you are UNABLE to COMPREHEND my posts BASED ON YEARS AND YEARS of Bucks Tests there is nothing more to say.
Vocabulary IS and ALWAYS will be the MOST important factor in VR tests produced by NFER for Bucks.
Maths and Codes etc etc will always be rote learnt. And indeed they are!
Perhaps you should point out that your expertise does not lie in Bucks VR Testing.
Patricia
I no longer have the time and energy to 'debate' with you.
You are INCORRECT, without any doubt. There are no shades of grey. It is a black and white situation.
If you are UNABLE to COMPREHEND my posts BASED ON YEARS AND YEARS of Bucks Tests there is nothing more to say.
Vocabulary IS and ALWAYS will be the MOST important factor in VR tests produced by NFER for Bucks.
Maths and Codes etc etc will always be rote learnt. And indeed they are!
Perhaps you should point out that your expertise does not lie in Bucks VR Testing.
Patricia
Hi G55
As Patricia has chosen to make personal remarks about my assertion that a more balanced tutoring regime is needed and has asked in an open forum for me to point out my expertise, I will quite happily end the debate with the following.
Myself and co-author Janet Peace set up our business The Tutors in 1996 and part of our portfolio was the preparation for the the Wirral 11+ tests, that at that time contained the 15 question types that appear in NFER publications. Wirral changed to the 21 question type format shortly afterwards.
Bucks contain the same 21 question types that appear in Wirral LEA tests. The difference is that Bucks is a single pass paper and the Wirral are aggregate scores. I could probably argue that as students in the Wirral have to perform equally well over two papers that it is more difficult to tutor for.
The Tutors have successfully prepared children for the Wirral 11+ by using material that we have co-written and we actually took Patricia´s advice on the format of the 21 question type papers, because of her level of knowledge and expertise of the Bucks format.
At our highest point The Tutors had 200 students on our register, about 50% 11+ and we employed 12 tutors, all experienced and qualified teachers to assist us.
We no longer tutor for the tests, but concentrate our efforts on writing preparation materials.
Our level of analysis for the 21 question types is as comprehensive as any produced by any other academic author. As such we were asked by elevenplusexams.co.uk to produce a range of products in preference to other potential authors.
We now have the largest range of verbal reasoning questions available covering all variations within the question types. As we have contractual agreements with elevenplusexams.co.uk we cannot discuss sales figures for all our products, but the CDs are market leaders, the short papers are unique in their format, the published papers appear consistently in the highest selling list and we outsell all other authors for e-papers.
Every one of our verbal reasoning products including the free methods & technique course are suitable for Bucks preparation.
I could walk into any tuition centre anywhere in Bucks and be able to tutor for the Bucks tests and believe that my level of expertise would be in high demand. My fees would be suitably extortionate.
Regards
Mike
As Patricia has chosen to make personal remarks about my assertion that a more balanced tutoring regime is needed and has asked in an open forum for me to point out my expertise, I will quite happily end the debate with the following.
Myself and co-author Janet Peace set up our business The Tutors in 1996 and part of our portfolio was the preparation for the the Wirral 11+ tests, that at that time contained the 15 question types that appear in NFER publications. Wirral changed to the 21 question type format shortly afterwards.
Bucks contain the same 21 question types that appear in Wirral LEA tests. The difference is that Bucks is a single pass paper and the Wirral are aggregate scores. I could probably argue that as students in the Wirral have to perform equally well over two papers that it is more difficult to tutor for.
The Tutors have successfully prepared children for the Wirral 11+ by using material that we have co-written and we actually took Patricia´s advice on the format of the 21 question type papers, because of her level of knowledge and expertise of the Bucks format.
At our highest point The Tutors had 200 students on our register, about 50% 11+ and we employed 12 tutors, all experienced and qualified teachers to assist us.
We no longer tutor for the tests, but concentrate our efforts on writing preparation materials.
Our level of analysis for the 21 question types is as comprehensive as any produced by any other academic author. As such we were asked by elevenplusexams.co.uk to produce a range of products in preference to other potential authors.
We now have the largest range of verbal reasoning questions available covering all variations within the question types. As we have contractual agreements with elevenplusexams.co.uk we cannot discuss sales figures for all our products, but the CDs are market leaders, the short papers are unique in their format, the published papers appear consistently in the highest selling list and we outsell all other authors for e-papers.
Every one of our verbal reasoning products including the free methods & technique course are suitable for Bucks preparation.
I could walk into any tuition centre anywhere in Bucks and be able to tutor for the Bucks tests and believe that my level of expertise would be in high demand. My fees would be suitably extortionate.
Regards
Mike
Mike Edwards is a co-author of The Tutors product range.