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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:55 am 
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Has anyone got an idea how this will affect the cut off marks? As just was thinking if the school decided that any girl with pupil premium would receive an offer automatically as long as she is is in too 350!! Therefore if they have 160 girl met these criteria; no one else’s will have an offer on merit!!??? Most of other schools make this offer for 10% not 350 when school capacity is no more than 160.
I found this policy is not fair to pupils as selection would be on merit not on financial status!!!!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:32 am 
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Hi Qusay. That's not how it works. All girls are ranked and they offer a place to all PP girls from the top 350 automatically if they decide to apply.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:47 am 
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So if DD is number 2 in the rank but without PP and they are other girls with PP in total 160 and scored less so let’s say their rank was from 180th till 350th. Therefore DD won’t be offered a place because the other 160 all have PP regardless who scored the most


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:57 am 
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It is an unusual policy. It is obviously EXTREMELY UNLIKELY that the top 350 girls will all be PP, or even that 160 of the top 350 girls will be PP, but it is theoretically possible.

I assume that the school looked at the profile of girls who've been in the top 350 over recent years and seen how many are PP and taken a calculated view that the number of PP girls in the top 350 will be manageable, but it's also possible that the new policy will encourage a higher number of PP girls to apply.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:05 am 
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Qusay02 wrote:
So if DD is number 2 in the rank but without PP and they are other girls with PP in total 160 and scored less so let’s say their rank was from 180th till 350th. Therefore DD won’t be offered a place because the other 160 all have PP regardless who scored the most



If you are so worried, why not ask the school how many girl's sat the exam and how many of them were in the PP / Service Premium category? They may just about be willing to go that far with information without a Freedom of Information request, although I doubt they will say how many in the top 350 are in that category.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:25 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:24 pm
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Location: Petts Wood, Bromley, Kent
Qusay02 wrote:
Has anyone got an idea how this will affect the cut off marks? As just was thinking if the school decided that any girl with pupil premium would receive an offer automatically as long as she is is in too 350!! Therefore if they have 160 girl met these criteria; no one else’s will have an offer on merit!!??? Most of other schools make this offer for 10% not 350 when school capacity is no more than 160.
I found this policy is not fair to pupils as selection would be on merit not on financial status!!!!

Why wouldn’t someone who scored in top 350 but perhaps parents couldn’t afford tutoring or the text books for familiarisation not be given a little credit for doing well in the test despite disadvantages. This seems fair to me. In another thread I asked if anyone was in Group 1 as it would be interesting to see the wording of their letter as I presume they should be told, but no one has come forward so it seems like this group is very rare. The school has very low numbers of pupil premium at present. I suspect many of the girls who have got places in the past aren’t far outside the top 350 anyway and there may not be many PP applying.

If you were considering the school so presume you’ve been keeping an eye on the website and sent in your response to consultation? I know of parents who did, including myself who have been fully in support of the change. I did ask the question of how far down the ranking past applicants had been to try and gauge what sort of impact it might have or whether it was more of a token guesture, but they declined to answer that particular question.

Just as likely to affect the score required to pass are higher numbers sitting and the popularity of the school.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:30 am 
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I agree with PettswoodFiona.

Financial status works both ways. Plenty of parents invest financially in preparation for 11+ tests in multiple counties and for independent schools. Are they really achieving those places "on merit"?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:53 am 
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The response here seems like dividing families into super rich and super poor which is not the case.
I know that children from poor families would have less advantages than others but on the other hand the majority who apply to Grammar school are ordinary people who they work very hard to have a decent life too. Their income is not that super high and they may exceed the highest income for support by few pounds. But when school decides to give automatically a place to someone with PP and ignores the one who is nearly with same level of life but just not entitled to PP; that why I said is not fair.
On the other hand; that many people do use illegitimate ways to declare minimum income (I am not accusing anyone but just to say this does happen).
I believe that all children should have same offers and same quality of education, but also I disagree to give a certain group all advantages and leave the one who are in middle without. They are not rich but also they are not entitled to Pupil premium.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:22 pm 
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Qusay02 wrote:
The response here seems like dividing families into super rich and super poor which is not the case.
I know that children from poor families would have less advantages than others but on the other hand the majority who apply to Grammar school are ordinary people who they work very hard to have a decent life too. Their income is not that super high and they may exceed the highest income for support by few pounds. But when school decides to give automatically a place to someone with PP and ignores the one who is nearly with same level of life but just not entitled to PP; that why I said is not fair.
On the other hand; that many people do use illegitimate ways to declare minimum income (I am not accusing anyone but just to say this does happen).
I believe that all children should have same offers and same quality of education, but also I disagree to give a certain group all advantages and leave the one who are in middle without. They are not rich but also they are not entitled to Pupil premium.


Although I agree with you that the FSM measurement is quite a blunt instrument, the actually reality is the vast majority of children who attend grammar schools are quite privileged and it's actually much more unfair that many children are given more opportunities in general life. Newstead are just trying to redress the balance a tiny bit and that's a good thing.


I do think there should be a category of people "working poor" that should also be used a measurement when discussing achievement (but that's a different topic).


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:27 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:50 pm
Posts: 114
shelley75 wrote:
Qusay02 wrote:
The response here seems like dividing families into super rich and super poor which is not the case.
I know that children from poor families would have less advantages than others but on the other hand the majority who apply to Grammar school are ordinary people who they work very hard to have a decent life too. Their income is not that super high and they may exceed the highest income for support by few pounds. But when school decides to give automatically a place to someone with PP and ignores the one who is nearly with same level of life but just not entitled to PP; that why I said is not fair.
On the other hand; that many people do use illegitimate ways to declare minimum income (I am not accusing anyone but just to say this does happen).
I believe that all children should have same offers and same quality of education, but also I disagree to give a certain group all advantages and leave the one who are in middle without. They are not rich but also they are not entitled to Pupil premium.


Although I agree with you that the FSM measurement is quite a blunt instrument, the actually reality is the vast majority of children who attend grammar schools are quite privileged and it's actually much more unfair that many children are given more opportunities in general life. Newstead are just trying to redress the balance a tiny bit and that's a good thing.


I do think there should be a category of people "working poor" that should also be used a measurement when discussing achievement (but that's a different topic).



To be honest, I don't think the school's aim is to redress social inequality with this new policy. Rather it seems like a financial decision to attract more funding as Newstead Wood has been struggling with it.

There are a few categories in PP. The school will annually receive £935 per child in years 7 to 11 recorded as Ever 6 FSM. Looked-after children (LAC) are also PP and the school will annually receive £2,300 per child. The school will also get £2,300 per child who once was a LAC but not a LAC anymore because they became adopted or got a special guardian or they have other child arrangements order.

Qusay02's last sentence "They are not rich but also they are not entitled to Pupil premium" particularly hits close to home. I am a single mum who just got out of an abusive marriage and financially struggling, meaning I need to worry about a roof over my children next month. And yet my children are not PP. My DD has never had a tutor or attended any course or class or Kumon or anything like that. Heck, I couldn't even afford to buy bond books. Thankfully, I have wonderful people around me who have given me their books used by their older children.

Also, it will squeeze out a few children near the cut-off mark, who would otherwise get in. On the bright side would be that the existing children and those who made it would benefit from the additional funding.


Last edited by apprentice on Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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