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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:54 pm 
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Do you think grammar schools have such good gcse results because they select clever children and do you think those clever children could do well in any school or do you think that grammar schools teach in a different way to make those children get good results?
Can anyone in grammar sector advice of their experiences? There are private schools that dont get as good results as grammars-and most of the children in them are from well to do families with parents who Im sure are actively involved in their childs education. What makes grammars get such amazing results?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:14 pm 
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It's mainly the intake, particularly for the super selective schools. If you take the top 1% of pupils (who have already proved that they are good at taking exams) it would be pretty poor if the school didn't get some of the best GCSE results in the country.
A better comparison if you really want to look at the league tables is to look at the Progress 8 results, or compare the results for the high achieving pupils b


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:24 pm 
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IMO, it's a combination of intake, a fairly competitive peer group that creates these results.
A bright child would probably do well anywhere, but the environment does make a difference.
A friend's son in a local comprehensive does not want to stretch himself more because he is already at the top of his class and is not interested to put in more effort. However, in a set of bright students, it would be probably a competition all the time so that the child may like to put in more effort. No guarantee that constant competition would not have a negative impact.

Some non grammar schools have been able to achieve great results. I think teachers in all schools have an interest in their pupils to get good result. There are some great and some not so great teachers in all schools.

BTW, well to do family does not necessarily mean that they are more associated with the child's education :|


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:30 pm 
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Advice2018 wrote:
There are private schools that dont get as good results as grammars-and most of the children in them are from well to do families with parents who Im sure are actively involved in their childs education. What makes grammars get such amazing results?


Why do you make this assumption? This is a common misconception - whilst all parents (bar a very small minority) want the best for their child, there are certainly some parents who believe that by paying for an education, they are absolving themselves of their responsibility to do anything - we see it on here where parents are asked what they are doing for the 11+, for example, and they don't know as "the (private) school does all that...."

If a parent has finance behind them, and they don't want their child to go to the local comprehensive, and they didn't get into a GS, then they will pay for access to a private school. Some of these are very good and require a high pass at the entrance test - others really aren't all that and are just an alternative to state education. Some private schools are popular because they focus on the pastoral side, or music, or dance. or drama...things that tend to be less well funded in state education - this allows a child to flousih at the things they are good at but may not get them "grades" that count as far as you are concerned in the hypothesis you psoe above.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:57 pm 
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Location: Herts
Exactly what I was going to say.

In my experience there are more parents at private school who are paying for someone else to "sort it for them" than there are those "actively involved" in their child's education.

I have already quoted the parent who told me that their son sat 13 plus without them ever seeing an exam paper and when they told me he was interested in Medicine and I told them about work experience they were supremely disinterested "the school will sort that for us, that is what I pay them for."

The parents who are prepared to be very "actively involved" recognise that no private school is going to care as much as the parents. Some in fact will push students towards subjects and universities that suit the school rather than the student, although some parents do that too!

Grammar schools and private schools do well because they have students who want to learn and great teachers who want to help them.

That is the equation that works and is present in many comprehensives as well.

It is when it is not "cool" to be smart and want to do well that it falls apart.

I have personally experienced levels of disruption in classrooms in schools in middle class areas that will absolutely prevent students doing well,

I know a student right now in a very middle class area who can't wait to get to secondary school to get away from disruptive students in the classroom.

Every student should have the right to learn without other students destroying it for them.

It is the fear of disruption in the state school classroom that drives many parents to private school but actually in my experience the same group of students behave quite differently with different teachers.

That is why state schools can be turned around when teachers can actually control the classroom.

But don't assume that disruption does not also take place in Grammar and private schools.

Sometimes private schools are reluctant to get rid of a fee paying customer!

I don't think grammar school results are amazing. I don't like that word as it implies that it is shocking and unexpected.

Students do well when they are taught well and want to learn. There is nothing amazing about that. DG


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:25 pm 
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Those are great points. I agree it is having a child that wants to learn that is key and being surrounded by children that want the same. Looking at league tables some results do look “amazing” but I think this is probably more to do with the children they have there and parents that take interest in their children. I think in fairness to some on the parents who privately educate their children- they both work full time in order to fund the
Private education and don’t get time in the week to help their children. Of course there are some who have lots of time on their hands but don’t see it as their problem or are only there at private school because it looks good at dinner party’s- I think they tend to be in the minority.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:11 pm 
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OP you seem to have looked at the league tables - the last ones that were published?

Last year's Parent Power edition had one very important point to make - the rise of the non-selective schools.

Whereas in previous years, barely any made in into the league tables, last year saw 9 partially selective schools and 15 completely non-selective schools in the country's Top 150 table.

You might argue that some of those are in affluent areas, where parents move to get their child into a good school, however, not all of them are.

So mostly, I would say it is about teaching and to a very large extent resources as well - as the top 150 independent schools are still very much ahead (apart from the top 10 or so where results are similar for both).


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:49 pm 
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Advice2018 wrote:
Those are great points. I agree it is having a child that wants to learn that is key and being surrounded by children that want the same. Looking at league tables some results do look “amazing” but I think this is probably more to do with the children they have there and parents that take interest in their children. I think in fairness to some on the parents who privately educate their children- they both work full time in order to fund the
Private education and don’t get time in the week to help their children. Of course there are some who have lots of time on their hands but don’t see it as their problem or are only there at private school because it looks good at dinner party’s- I think they tend to be in the minority.


You use the word "think" many times in the reasons you give for parents privately educating their children. But do you actually know? Unless you are one of those parents you can't comment on their reasons for using private schools. Looks good at dinner parties - really? Have you met people like this? I haven't. There are lots of reasons to use private schools and, if you can afford it, the monstrous lack of funding in state schools is a very big reason. Why would you send your child to a state school that does not have qualified subject teachers and uses cover supervisors who do not teach if you can afford the private school up the road which has a full quota of qualified teachers to teach every class? (and yes, I know not all private schools have suitably qualified teachers - but a lot do). Some of us who've used both state and private are interested in all our children's education, no matter which school they are in. I would not stereotype state school parents, nor private school parents.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:50 am 
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Bluesea- I do find your sentence that you are “concerned in all our children’s education”
quite condescending as it implies other people aren’t. I work full time and look after my children with a lot of juggling and constant exhaustion so that I can pay my taxes so that everyone can get a good education. Unfortunately it is beyond my control how the government spends my taxes. I think every parent on here values education and would want every child to have the best education they can -be it state, private or grammar.
In terms of my use of the word “think” - this is a forum to say what you think so I will continue to use that word.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:23 pm 
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Quote:
Bluesea- I do find your sentence that you are “concerned in all our children’s education”
quite condescending as it implies other people aren’t.


Really?

That was in reply to your statement of grammar school parents 'taking an interest in their children' and the implication that others don't!


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