top Tips please to assess 6th forms

[Amber]

It's my impression that some selective schools play fast and loose with the admissions code at sixth form and a determined parent could have some fun challenging the way the rules are applied. I have to be careful what I say on here but it is absolutely the case that existing students can't be prioritised and that actual admissions criteria have to be the same for external as internal candidates. The interesting part comes when you read the oversubscription criteria and then all manner of things seem to come into play, some of which I feel hover on the margins of legality. But some schools have good legal advisors.

When my children have left school I will probably investigate some of this further, but local to me an interesting market is developing at sixth form; the next step I think will be that some way will be found to boot out existing students who aren't as good as external applicants - this may raise a stink when you remember that this may involve the expulsion of children with a clean run of A grades. I think one of the Herts schools does this already and I imagine it will become more common unless someone starts to take the view that really you should stay where you are for sixth form, unless there are very compelling reasons to move. I say this as someone whose child did move for sixth form, for better and worse, and whose other children may do the same - their choice not mine. Personally I feel the idea of moving around at 16 is difficult to defend and sustain in areas with grammar schools, and it is a situation destined for implosion over the next 5-8 years in my view.

My only suggestion to parents in this position is very predictable - let the child decide. For in fact they won't be a child when the consequences of the decision are felt, and you, as a parent, wouldn't want to be responsible for helping to create a disaffected and unhappy young adult.

[Guest55]

I'm surprised that Sixth form admission hasn't been scrutinised by the Office of the Schools Adjudicator now that students are staying in education or training until 18.

Perhaps people should refer schools breaking the rules ....

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisat ... djudicator" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[silverysea]

I wonder if and how the performance of newbies versus old hands is measured? If I had to rely on just asking the school, would I get facts and figures or just vague anecdotes? Lots of people tell me how great (or otherwise) things went for their child/relative/neighbour/ kid they heard of etc. when they moved to x. Also when they went to X for the full 7 years.

I also imagine some kids could get a big boost by moving. I certainly did age 17 and it has been great seeing dd2 shine once she got off the local conveyor belt of affluent but complacent local ex-primary mates.

I never attended any school for more than 4 years, nor did my cohort, due to various events, both municipal and personal- I don't feel that was a major factor in the weird person I have become.

I've been crunching some graphs from good school guide about 6th form achievement of intake versus output- wow there are some big differences in schools if this is to be believed. Some are coming out smelling of roses, and some that don't rank top in the end have actually done wonders when you look at the starting material.

[silverysea]

That's really interesting that they cannot retain their own students over higher scorers, is that widely known do you think?

I am really surprised by that! It seems fair in some ways but not in others.

[silverysea]

Oh no is there really an NVR for Latymer? I hate NVR, so can't check work or help much, and dd1 won't do anything extra like workbooks as a rule, it's like pulling teeth. Huh. Though she got a really high score on some IQ tests that were NVR like, maybe it's ok.

So do the internals get to know what sort of questions will be covered?

Sounds like another way to discriminate against externals, just an observation not a criticism.

[copella]

Internals don't take the latymer Sixth form exam. I suppose the school take it that they have already sat an entrance exam to get into the school. I wouldn't bother to do any work for it. All the bright kids we knew who took it managed to pass. Also if you fail but do very well in GCSEs they will try and fit you in. My impression is that the school welcomes the externals. Friends if my ds1 who went as externals have felt happy and have no complaints. They feel well treated by staff and have made new friends. I think once there it is like joining any other new school. But there are a fair bunch of them joining from lots of schools in the area.

[SteveDH]

It's my impression that some selective schools play fast and loose with the admissions code at sixth form and a determined parent could have some fun challenging the way the rules are applied. I have to be careful what I say on here but it is absolutely the case that existing students can't be prioritised and that actual admissions criteria have to be the same for external as internal candidates. The interesting part comes when you read the oversubscription criteria and then all manner of things seem to come into play, some of which I feel hover on the margins of legality.

virtually every designated grammar school seems to have something along the line of

Priority will be given to existing students transferring from Year 11 who meet the entrance criteria

within their oversubscription criteria.

However looking at the governments school admissions code, I can't find anything that explicitly states that this can't be done.

about the only relevant thing I can find is

1.9 It is for admission authorities to formulate their admission arrangements, but they must not:
b) take into account any previous schools attended, unless it is a named feeder school;

which could possibly mean that they can't take into account their own school...

is there anything more explicate anywhere?

[Amber]

That's not the bit I have issues with Steve, but without going into details which may identify particular schools, I can't really be more explicit. It has to do with the way schools sort out which new applicants they will offer places to and which they won't, considering that many are destined to exceed the minimum entrance criteria.

Personally I feel that existing students should have priority in admissions - I do not find the idea of being forced to look for another school at sixth form because incomers may get slightly higher grades at all acceptable. Despite being a parent of a child who did move to a very selective sixth form, I am not in favour of the way things are going - if something isn't done there will be a whole new admissions round at 16 which will be even more competitive than the 11+ and to put it bluntly I don't really think we need that. I have no personal axe to grind over this, as my children have (had) a choice of whatever they wanted to do - but I actually don't agree with it and feel that there should be a default option of remaining at a school unless there are very strong reasons (pastoral or subject-choice-related) for needing to move. That is the only way that schools can retain their best students, which leads to better staff retention and higher quality teaching as well, and it is the only way to prevent a second 'super-league' of sixth forms developing according to market principles. If we continue to go down that route, many children will suffer by being forced out of schools they are happy in and the lovely situation of young people becoming proud ambassadors for the school they have grown up in will disappear in favour of a transient sixth form population never really bedding down in a school. There is also a contagion about it in Y11 - along the 'well I'm leaving anyway' kind of lines, which doesn't help when they are preparing for GCSEs and can lead to students saying 'well if everyone else is applying to x then I might as well'. I have seen this at first hand and there are schools ready and willing to take the top students from all the other local schools by offering slick evenings which just about stop short of cash inducements!

Sorry if that is controversial. Other opinions are available.

[silverysea]

I don't think you should apologise, it is a reasonable opinion. In my opinion, most kids won't choose to move anyway. But all of the schools I have looked at take in MORE students at 6th form. I expect they might ease out a few unsuitables quietly? I suspect dds aren't the right gender for the school that dumps all its A minus pupils.b

But what about those like dd1 who are NOT that happy, and very cynical about their school and avoid most school activities due to lack of interest and snide comments from a few priceless individuals.cOr want boy/girls/coed now? Or have a passion for a non-offered subject or activity that they have discovered since the current school was chosen for them at age 10? They are young adults now, able to vote (if in Scotland).

We are discussing the options with dd1 who is only over 14 and a half. The only reason she gives for staying is to be with her current set of 5-6 friends. Some of these friends have only appeared in the past few months, and others have disappeared from her scene.

We want her to get the top marks she can and be enthused by her school-this is more important than these friends who she can see more of outside school anyway.

[solimum]

We had one DS who had to move (11-16 comp, so no option: he went to the local sixth form college and coasted rather, but has done v well in Mech eng and now has a PhD AND A JOB!
The next DS could have stayed, as the comp was starting a tiny sixth form. He was offered a half-price scholarship place at the local independent, but chose (possibly with some parental encouragement!) the more distant boys grammar. He now tells me it was really difficult for several weeks, fitting in to a new more old-fashioned style, petty regulations, plus the pressure of new friendship groups etc. At least one of his classmates from the same comp dropped out within a month. But he survived and thrived, found new challenges and eventually fitted in in many ways better than he had before. Now with an Oxford maths degree and working for a PhD... (will hopefully GET A JOB one day)

DD was offered a place at the neighbouring girls grammar, but point blank refused to go (despite dire warnings from DH!). She was really unhappy with the girls-only idea as many of her closer friends were boys, claimed she would do much better somewhere familiar and without the travel hassle. She stayed at the (by now more established) comp 6th form, did fine , now at Manchester Uni planning one day to cure cancer...

So no moral really, except to echo an earlier plea to let them make the final decision - certainly make known the options, look at pros & cons, consider how important subject choice is as a deciding factor - DD's friend also stayed put, but at the cost of not getting all her choices of A level. Also think about who will be writing the school's UCAS reference - can be more difficult if the school have only known a pupil for a year (or might be a distinct advantage in some cases!) Remember that the journey to 6th form might be a very useful chance for driving practice once they turn 17!