Dame Alice Owen's Allocation Thread. Historic Ranking Info

[Etondad]

As previously pointed out it is in the information about the exam papers. If you look under Exam information you will find a file called Entrance Exam Process.

DAO use the VR paper to reduce the amount of English and Maths papers they need to mark.

They have always done this and the mark has always been 115 except for the first year of the CEM when it was 113.

The VR paper is the first round and you need to pass the first round to get your English and Maths papers marked.

There is no requirement for DAO to mark more than 318 papers in order to get 65 students. The cost of the examination process is great and there is no need for hard working teachers to be spending any more time marking any more papers.

Anyone who was impacted this year had the chance to appeal if they felt it was unfair.

When the admissions arrangements are published for your year you will have the ability to respond to them. But there is no reason at all for DAO to change this. They have many more candidates than they need who did get 115 and above in the CEM. It is likely that all those who currently are holding a place could turn it down and they will still have enough left in the 140 ranks still to go to fill them. DG

I get that they have many more candidates but is it the
right candidates? If they feel that VR should take precedence and have a minimum score then it should be included in the admission criteria​. Currently the admission criteria says that all 3 papers are added together and places offered according to score.

Here's the interesting thing about all this...DAO (like most high performing schools) determines who they think are the right "qualified" students not the parents. If they decide to move the VR mark from 115 to 120, and they feel there's a justification for it, i'm sure they will make the decision.

It appears they have been getting it right somehow, as they still seem to be performing well despite not selecting the 114 and 113 VR score students

DAO seems to prioritise VR scores above even the English score and the maths score....in their published determined admissions arrangement 2018/19, they state: "...If two or more children have the same total score then the Verbal Reasoning mark will take precedence over the English mark which will take precedence over the Mathematics mark.... "

Why have they said this? is this fair? what is so special about the VR score? what if my child is scored better at maths? etc etc...

That is the basis they have chosen to separate the students they want from the ones they do not want...

If you don't like it, argue your case with the school and try to change it.

[Enfparents]

As previously pointed out it is in the information about the exam papers. If you look under Exam information you will find a file called Entrance Exam Process.

DAO use the VR paper to reduce the amount of English and Maths papers they need to mark.

Yes we know this DAO - we have referred to this back up document several times. This is part of their marking process to save them time - it's not a requirement for admission to the school which very clearly refers (only) to the combined score across all three papers. You need to read it in context. The key wording is where it says this is because in their experience candidates below 115 won't score high enough overall across the three papers.

They have always done this and the mark has always been 115 except for the first year of the CEM when it was 113.

Do you mean last year?? When 2 candidates with 114 and 3 with 113 were among the successful candidates?

The VR paper is the first round and you need to pass the first round to get your English and Maths papers marked.

No, it is not the 'first round'. It may be thought of as such by those 'in the know' who have been ingrained in this process for many years, but that doesn't make it so. It is a marking procedure to support the admissions process in a time efficient manner. They say they have chosen that cut off score because they don't think any students below that will rank high enough across all three papers. They are trying to identify the students that rank highest across all three and they believe this is the quickest way to do it. (Compare to HBS for how a genuine 'first round' should be referred to in admissions requirements).

There is no requirement for DAO to mark more than 318 papers in order to get 65 students. The cost of the examination process is great and there is no need for hard working teachers to be spending any more time marking any more papers.

Yes but they're not just looking for ANY 65 students, or even PROBABLY the best 65 students. They are looking for THE 65 students who merit a place under the admissions criteria. The ones who have scored highest over the three papers. If some of these students are not in the 318 they have marked, I'm afraid there is a need for them to mark some more, or specify a minimum CEM mark in the actual admissions requirements.

Anyone who was impacted this year had the chance to appeal if they felt it was unfair.

And I would encourage them to do so.

But there is no reason at all for DAO to change this. They have many more candidates than they need who did get 115 and above in the CEM. It is likely that all those who currently are holding a place could turn it down and they will still have enough left in the 140 ranks still to go to fill them. DG

They would be quite within their rights to specify a hurdle CEM mark in their admissions criteria, or say that successful candidates must be in the top 300 CEM marks, and yes that would give them enough children to select from. This is not the problem. The problem is that their current marking process does not achieve what it says it does, which is to identify the top scoring candidates across all three papers, regardless of their mark in any individual paper.


Right, I've definitely wasted enough time on this now. If people can't see the holes in this process then I don't think there's any more I could say to make it clearer.

[Guest55]

May I suggest that parents who are concerned refer the admissions policy to the Office of the Schools Adjudicator?

They will determine if there is clarity ..

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisat ... djudicator" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Enfparents]

DAO seems to prioritise VR scores above even the English score and the maths score....in their published determined admissions arrangement 2018/19, they state: "...If two or more children have the same total score then the Verbal Reasoning mark will take precedence over the English mark which will take precedence over the Mathematics mark.... "

Why have they said this? is this fair? what is so special about the VR score? what if my child is scored better at maths? etc etc...

You're missing the point Etondad. If the admissions criteria said they made the selection based on VR, or maths, or English, or needlework, that's fine if they then stick to it. And it's fine for VR to be used as a tie-breaker if that's what the admissions requirements say.

It's not about whether VR is the 'right' thing to be selecting on.

It's about whether their process has resulted in them adhering to their admissions criteria, which state they will take the 65 scoring best across all three papers. The VR cut-off is only supposed to be a means to an end to identify these 65 students - if it doesn't do so, the process has failed them.

[Etondad]

May I suggest that parents who are concerned refer the admissions policy to the Office of the Schools Adjudicator?

They will determine if there is clarity ..

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisat ... djudicator" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Perfect suggestion.

[Etondad]

DAO seems to prioritise VR scores above even the English score and the maths score....in their published determined admissions arrangement 2018/19, they state: "...If two or more children have the same total score then the Verbal Reasoning mark will take precedence over the English mark which will take precedence over the Mathematics mark.... "

Why have they said this? is this fair? what is so special about the VR score? what if my child is scored better at maths? etc etc...

You're missing the point Etondad. If the admissions criteria said they made the selection based on VR, or maths, or English, or needlework, that's fine if they then stick to it. And it's fine for VR to be used as a tie-breaker if that's what the admissions requirements say.

It's not about whether VR is the 'right' thing to be selecting on.

It's about whether their process has resulted in them adhering to their admissions criteria, which state they will take the 65 scoring best across all three papers. The VR cut-off is only supposed to be a means to an end to identify these 65 students - if it doesn't do so, the process has failed them.

Really? failed them? by whose judgment? yours?

[Trakka]

Here's the interesting thing about all this...DAO (like most high performing schools) determines who they think are the right "qualified" students not the parents. If they decide to move the VR mark from 115 to 120, and they feel there's a justification for it, i'm sure they will make the decision.

.

I find this quite patronising. I'm not saying I know better. All I ask for is clarity and fairness.

[Trakka]

If people can't see the holes in this process then I don't think there's any more I could say to make it clearer.

I do Enfparents and I appreciate you raising the issue.

[Enfparents]

Really? failed them? by whose judgment? yours?

No, not by my or anyone's judgement, but according to the admissions criteria which they have chosen for themselves.

Put simply:

They have admissions criteria which specify the students they want.
They then put an administrative/marking process in place to enable them to identify those students.

If the administrative/marking process does not then correctly pick up all the students who have qualified according to the admissions criteria, then that process has failed the school. It is not a matter of opinion or judgement.

[Daogroupie]

The DAO waiting list has just moved again for the first time in over 5 weeks.

Rank 149 just accepted a place so Rank 150 is now in first place on the waiting list. DG